Landing the Cessna 162

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Merlinspop
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by Merlinspop »

I still haven't figured out if my first instructor was an unsafe cowboy or an astute teacher, but he had me do two drills over and over and the combination of the two made me enjoy the time I spend over the runway as much or more than any other phase of flight.

1 - He had me "fast taxi" down the runway, getting my nose wheel off the ground, but keeping the mains on as long as possible. I'd have to use throttle to moderate my speed to stay just below flying speed and sight as far down the runway as possible to detect any deviation from the centerline and make subtle corrections. I admit that I ground down the tail tie down of the Tomahawk a bit at first.

2 - He'd have me flair to land and hold it off as close to the runway as I could, and ADD just enough power to maintain this 'float' to the runway mid point and then he'd tell me either "land" or "go around." Again, I don't know if this was safe, but geeze it was a LOT of fun!
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MrMorden
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by MrMorden »

HAPPYDAN wrote: BTW, I shared the pattern with 2 WACO biplanes. What a gas, seeing those vintage barnstormers up in the air!
Between them those two airplanes probably used more oil than the 162 used in gas! :)
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FastEddieB
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FastEddieB »

Glad things are working out.
HAPPYDAN wrote:He says it's better to carry some power in for the times conditions may not be so favorable, which here in PNW is almost always!
I do question this.

The FAA says this, in the Airplane Flying Handbook (page 8-6):

TOUCHDOWN
The touchdown is the gentle settling of the airplane onto the landing surface. The roundout and touchdown should be made with the engine idling, and the airplane at minimum controllable airspeed, so that the airplane will touch down on the main gear at approximately stalling speed. As the airplane settles, the proper landing attitude is attained by application of whatever back-elevator pressure is necessary.

(Bolded mine)

Your instructor should be aware of this recommendation, and should be able to explain exactly why he has you carrying power. In my experience it adds one additional variable and makes the process just a little harder, not easier.

I'm curious as to his reasoning. Bear in mind, I have never landed a 162, but pretty sure in the one (I think) landing I've seen power was off and the landing quite conventional.
Last edited by FastEddieB on Thu May 28, 2015 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMorden
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by MrMorden »

FastEddieB wrote:Glad things are working out.
HAPPYDAN wrote:He says it's better to carry some power in for the times conditions may not be so favorable, which here in PNW is almost always!
I do question this.

The FAA says thus, in the Airplane Flying Handbook (page 8-6):

TOUCHDOWN
The touchdown is the gentle settling of the airplane onto the landing surface. The roundout and touchdown should be made with the engine idling, and the airplane at minimum controllable airspeed, so that the airplane will touch down on the main gear at approximately stalling speed. As the airplane settles, the proper landing attitude is attained by application of whatever back-elevator pressure is necessary.

(Bolded mine)

Your instructor should be aware of this recommendation, and should be able to explain exactly why he has you carrying power. In my experience it adds one additional variable and makes the process just a little harder, not easier.

I'm curious as to his reasoning. Bear in mind, I have never landed a 162, but pretty sure in the one (I think) landing I've seen power was off and the landing quite conventional.
To be fair, the AFH is a general manual and not every recommendation in it can apply to every airplane.

It probably says to fly a 3° glide slope too. You can't do that in most LSA without power all the way to the runway, because their low inertia and steeper glide angles don't allow it.

I prefer to round out with power off, but there are a lot of ways to skin that cat.
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by SportPilot »

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Last edited by SportPilot on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FastEddieB
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FastEddieB »

MrMorden wrote:
To be fair, the AFH is a general manual and not every recommendation in it can apply to every airplane.
Of course.
It probably says to fly a 3° glide slope too.
I doubt that, but if you can find that I'll stand corrected.

I'm only speaking from my experience, which is often consistent with FAA recommendations, because that was how I learned and then went on to teach.

There are times to think "outside the box", but any time one diverges from FAA or POH recommendations, one should have a good, articulable reason for doing so.

I can only imagine the instructor thinks there's something about the 162 that causes it to need power, or that landing with a bit of power makes it easier and later will focus on power off as a standard procedure. But here I'd invoke the Law of Primacy and put forth that learning it the right way first might be preferred, even if it is a little harder.
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FrankR »

I have been flying a C162 at Falcon Field in Mesa, AZ. Falcon Aviation; rental. Good FBO.

I have found that the Skycatcher seems to balloon easier than the Allegro I trained on, or the Sport Cruiser I fly in San Diego. It could be the hot temperatures of the pavement.

All of them are very touchy in the elevator, and even minor movements have exaggerated effects during the flare.

My problem seems to be psychological. So, instead of actually flaring, I just think about it a little bit. Kind of like only showing the vermouth to a martini. Less is definitely more.

I've never landed on the front wheel. I also don't try to over engineer the approach speed. Get slow...flare a little bit. Keep it in the center. I trust my judgement that I am handling the winds and updrafts.

More than once in the Skycatcher, I have been on the ground, on the rollout, decreasing speed; and the nose will come off. It will take full forward stick to keep the plane on the ground. This has never happened on other planes. It indicates to me, a flying characteristic.
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chavycha
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by chavycha »

First off, see disclaimer below. Most of my LSA experience has been in the 162 so I can give you some pilot-to-pilot advice on how to best land the critter.

1. Here’s the good news – the Skycatcher will make you a good stick-and-rudder pilot. The posters above have touched on the basics – the Skycatcher is lighter (both in weight and control forces) than standard-category aircraft. It gets blown around by the wind a little more, and is a bit squirrely near the ground. That much said, if you ever transition to a larger aircraft, you’ll be amazed how much better your skills are than people who started in a more forgiving Cherokee or 172. Awesome!

2. And here’s a differing opinion from SportPilot and Flocker. I fly the Skycatcher from a relatively short field and operate nearly exclusively at other short-ish fields around the NW. I use full flaps nearly every time I land, and often mix in some slips as well. I fly steeper-than-normal approaches because I don’t like wallowing around a few feet above the ground – I’d much rather fly a consistent speed on a steep approach than get stuck trying to bleed off a ton of airspeed near the ground, especially when it’s turbulent. I’m across the threshold, flared out, and touched down quick, so in the danger zone for a minimal amount of time. If you’re operating from a 7000’ x 150’ runway, you can do whatever you want. But I don’t like being pushed around or floating at 5’ AGL when the runway’s only 2000’ and 40’ wide (on a good day).

3. You’re fast. Like WAY too fast. As mentioned above, too fast when you cross the threshold and start your flare, and you will balloon and/or float for miles and miles. The Skycatcher is a slippery little airplane so it doesn’t bleed speed that well. Even an extra couple knots will give you 200’ of float. And from what you’re saying, you’ve probably got 15-20 knots too much. “BUT THE POH SAYS 60-70 AND THAT’S WHAT MY INSTRUCTOR SAYS!!!” Well, yes and no.

4. First, let’s look at the POH and see what Cessna says, page 4-22. Normal landing procedure says 60-70 KIAS with flaps up, then flaps as desired, then 55-60 KIAS on short final full flaps. For a short-field landing, your short final speed is 50 KIAS. Interesting. They wouldn’t recommend something that’s dangerous, but isn’t 50 KIAS really slow? Turns out, no. In fact, it’s a tad on the HIGH side for this airplane. One rule you hear a lot (or will hear a lot) is that when flying unfamiliar aircraft, you can figure your approach speeds by calculating 1.3 VSO. That’s to say, your speed on short final with full flaps should be 1.3 times the full flap stalling speed. VSO on the Skycatcher is 37kts (at max gross). 1.3 VSO is 48 knots. If you don’t use flaps, the stalling speed is 41 KIAS so you’re looking at a 1.3VSO of 53 KIAS.

5. So you tootle down final at 60-65 KIAS, thinking you’re doing great. And hey, the stall’s a scary thing, so let’s do it at 65-70 for queen and country! Cross the threshold and you’re still going 65. You flare out, then balloon or float, and finally, once you’ve burned off that airspeed from 65 down to 45, the airplane begins to sink again, the stall horn blares, and you fall like a bag of sand to the runway. Kersplat! Ugfh. What happened? Well, you had to somehow slow from 65 to the low 40’s. And once you got there, you were in a nose-high attitude, a few feet above the runway, and you weren’t quick enough with power to arrest that sink. It wasn’t a stall, nor even close to one, but still not a pleasant way to land an airplane.

6. The stall warning horn on the Skycatcher is both a blessing and a curse. That damn thing starts at nearly 55 KIAS dirty… a full 18 knots above stall speed! You should hear it when you’re still a bit away from the ground. Consider it a nice way of confirming that you’re on airspeed without having to look down.

7. Next time you fly, bring a CAMERA. Mount it in a way that films both the PFD and the view over the nose. Ask your instructor if he/she can demonstrate some approaches at 50-55 on final. Then try some yourself. Note what makes a good approach with minimal float. I bet you’ll find that your best ones have you crossing the threshold at low speeds. You will also notice that it takes a bit more control force and attentiveness to keep the plane pointed in the right direction. Guess what? Having to work the controls and landing the airplane -- yup, that’s what makes you a pilot, and why we work on so much slow flight!
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FastEddieB »

Great post!

I nominate it for...

Well, great post, anyway.

Just curious, do you land with power or carry it into the flare?
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by SportPilot »

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Last edited by SportPilot on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by chavycha »

FastEddieB - I usually have the throttle at idle from around 50' AGL to touchdown. That's if everything's going right. I'm hardly a perfect pilot soooo it doesn't always work out that way. :P Of course, I can always add a bit of power if I've rounded out / flared high. This happens a lot when I've been flying 172s recently, as the sight picture and flare heights are a little different. But it's usually only a little bit, say bumping up to 1100 RPM or so. The nose of the 162 will yaw pretty sharply left if you apply much power in the flare, which nets pretty ugly results.

SportPilot - Yeah, I wasn't trying to say there was anything wrong with how you're flying it. It obviously works for you and where you typically operate. I'm guessing, though, that you're operating with a lot of margin in terms of runway length. You may also have a protracted roundout which gives you time to bleed off speed before the flare. You're probably good enough that you don't overcontrol and balloon up in the process.

From a safety perspective, extra airspeed on final can be a big problem. In the past couple years at my home strip, we've had a half dozen people run off the end of the runway (3,101x60'). The offenders have included a 172, a 150, a Cherokee 140, and a Beech 19. :shock: All of those airplanes have the capability to be down and stopped in a thousand feet if the correct speeds are flown.
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by chavycha »

Here's a video I shot a few months ago for a friend of mine when I was screwing around in the 162. I idle the power on the downwind and don't touch it again 'til I'm taxiing off the runway.

The head-mount GoPro isn't the best for catching the parameters (airspeed, altitude, etc.) but the narration gives some idea of what's going on. I'm doing a lot of looking outside the airplane and trying to manage the energy for best possible touchdown location and speed. Since these are simulated engine failures with power cut on the downwind, I'm abbreviating my base and final as necessary. I float just a bit on the first couple but the last one is a great example of no excess airspeed or altitude over the threshold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Sbz1RTGgQ
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FastEddieB »

chavycha wrote:FastEddieB - I usually have the throttle at idle from around 50' AGL to touchdown. That's if everything's going right. I'm hardly a perfect pilot soooo it doesn't always work out that way. :P
That's exactly how I used to teach - by 50' to 100' it should be clear the runway is made, and the throttle, if not already at idle, should come smoothly back to idle - one less thing to futz with in the found out and flare. Of course, one's hand should stay on it ready for a timely application if needed, but from a stabilized approach that should be very rare.

In my estimation you've been taught well and internalized the lessons.

Good job!
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by FastEddieB »

Watched the video (fast forwarding to the good parts).

Take it for what it's worth, but we fly very much alike!
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Re: Landing the Cessna 162

Post by SportPilot »

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Last edited by SportPilot on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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