14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

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Torque
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14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

FAA offers this but not one person I have talked to will do it. Why would the FAA offer this if no one believes its safe. In the eye's of the FAA it can be done.

The first people to do this will go down in Aviation history. They will be talking about this for years and generations to come.

Why is this offered if no one will do it?

Tony
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

The FAA established in 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) specific requirements to allow a practical test for a Sport Pilot Certificate only in a sport aircraft that has a single pilot seat
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Jack Tyler »

This - a check "ride" by an examiner who observes from the ground while the single-seat a/c is flown by the pilot being given the check ride - is conducted occasionally, often for exhibition a/c. An example is Dave Dollarhide, whom some of you might have seen flying a Scooter (an A-4 single seat attack jet from the 60's/70's) at a recent air show. After a series of other check-outs, both in jets and sims, Dave was given a check ride in an A-4 while the examiner observed it from the ground. (Dave has many hours in A-4s but from 45 years ago; he said there was 'lots of muscle memory' on that first flight. Dave was later the Chief Pilot for Delta Airlines and now flies a RV-4). His check ride is on youtube and it was flawless.

An example in the LSA category where this may apply could be the Panther, being manufactured in kit form by Dan Weseman at Haller Air Park outside Green Cove Springs, FL. The design can be built as an LSA, is single seat, and can be flown aerobatic. Easy assembly and low cost are its main design attributes; the good looks are free. <s> I can imagine an insurance company requiring a DPE sign-off before insuring a given pilot for a Panther, tho' I don't know if that would actually happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_Perf ... on_Panther

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5EQDABwGw for a more thorough discussion of this clever LSA if you can bear the loudspeaker in the background.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by drseti »

It's problematic that, though a student can take a practical test in a single-seater, I am prohibited from giving the owner of that same single-seater a flight review in his or her own aircraft. This used to be common practice, using a handheld from the ground, when the BFR rules were more general and allowed total CFI discretion. They were changed a decade or two back to require at least an hour each of ground instruction and flight instruction. Another FAR states that flight instruction can only be given in an aircraft with dual flight controls, which effectively eliminates the single-seat biennial.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

So this is also offered to PP not just the Sport Pilot?

Very good info and thanks for sharing. I will try and post a link to one of the video's you mention. I believe this is what the FAA had in mind when making this rule, for the person who may for some reason or another flew such and such airplane, has years experience in said airframe but never did finish his training.

Would you say this is why this is written or what is your or anyone's view on this CFR.

Thanks again for sharing.

Tony
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

drseti wrote:It's problematic that, though a student can take a practical test in a single-seater, I am prohibited from giving the owner of that same single-seater a flight review in his or her own aircraft. This used to be common practice, using a handheld from the ground, when the BFR rules were more general and allowed total CFI discretion. They were changed a decade or two back to require at least an hour each of ground instruction and flight instruction. Another FAR states that flight instruction can only be given in an aircraft with dual flight controls, which effectively eliminates the single-seat biennial.

61.45 Practical tests: Required aircraft and equipment.

(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.
(f) Light-sport aircraft with a single seat. A practical test for a sport pilot certificate may be conducted in a light-sport aircraft having a single seat provided that the—
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Examiner is in a position to observe the operation of the aircraft and evaluate the proficiency of the applicant; and
(3) Pilot certificate of an applicant successfully passing the test is issued a pilot certificate with a limitation “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-seat light-sport aircraft only.”
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by drseti »

That covers practical tests very well. But why isn't there a similar rule for flight reviews?
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

I guess that is a question for the FAA. But this is not about flight reviews.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by 3Dreaming »

That provision was put in there for the transitioning ultralight pilots who had converted their single seat aircraft to ELSA. Once the conversion was completed they need a pilot certificate to fly the airplane.

Back in 2004 when the sport pilot rule went into effect if you were a ultralight pilot who belonged to a recognized organization, and had the required time logged flying ultralights you could simply take a checkride to become a Sport Pilot. If I remember correctly this could be done without instructor endorsements.

Times have changed since then. The time period allowed for those pilots to transfer has passed. Now you must meet the current requirements of CFR 61 subpar J. This requires flight training which can not be done in a single place aircraft. Since you have to do the training in a 2 place aircraft, why not just spend an other hour of time in the 2 seat aircraft and do the checkride?
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

FAA-S-8081-29 with Changes 1,2 and 3

Go to the bottom of page 4 and you will find this. If this is not the current Practical test Standards for Sport Pilot, please post the newer version that does not include 14 CFR PART 1

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/tes ... 081-29.pdf
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by 3Dreaming »

Torque wrote:FAA-S-8081-29 with Changes 1,2 and 3

Go to the bottom of page 4 and you will find this. If this is not the current Practical test Standards for Sport Pilot, please post the newer version that does not include 14 CFR PART 1

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/tes ... 081-29.pdf
I don't see much at the bottom of page 4.

What is it that you think people should be doing? Only the FAA or a designated pilot examiner can do the initial sport pilot checkride.
Why do you want to do your checkride in the single place airplane anyway?
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by drseti »

3Dreaming wrote:Why do you want to do your checkride in the single place airplane anyway?
I can't speak for Torque, but I've had students in this same situation, who wanted to do so. Their reason is that they thought it best, from a safety standpoint, to be examined in the single-place aircraft they owned/built and would actually be flying.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by 3Dreaming »

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Why do you want to do your checkride in the single place airplane anyway?
I can't speak for Torque, but I've had students in this same situation, who wanted to do so. Their reason is that they thought it best, from a safety standpoint, to be examined in the single-place aircraft they owned/built and would actually be flying.
Did you find an examiner who would do the single place ride? I know of one who said his first instinct was no way, but later thought it would be better to have these people working within the system. This was for transitioning ultralight pilots before the January 2007 deadline.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by Torque »

Go to the bottom of page 9 not page 4, my mistake.
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Re: 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45(f) Who will do this?

Post by 3Dreaming »

Torque wrote:Go to the bottom of page 9 not page 4, my mistake.
The PTS was written in 2004 when the sport pilot rule first came out. There have been a few changes made to the PTS since then, but it was just a change and not a re-write. In my opinion the single seat checkride was put in place for those existing ultralight pilots who would need to get a sport pilot certificate. There used to be a provision for those pilots to use their ultralight time to get a sport pilot certificate. It was CFR 61.329. It is no longer there, but you can Google it if you want. The PTS still mentions this, and the deadline is almost 8 years past. Just because the regulations say something is possible doesn't make it the right thing to do.
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