Class D, C endorsements - recommendations?

[drseti]

As Jack likes to say, "the exception that proves the rule."

[comperini]

Paul, here is another one that I disagree with in a way. You don't need the endorsement before the checkride. You do need it for the flight home if you pass, so it is a good idea to do them before hand.

Yes, you do need required endorsements before showing up to the checkride.

Your student needs to show up to the practical, with whatever endorsements they need to fly as PIC that day. In addition to the required "this student is ready for the practical exam" endorsements, others, including the tailwheel endorsement if appropriate, airspeed endorsement (everyone gets one of those now, above and below 87 Kts), and if we are flying in "airspace" during the practical, the airspace endorsement.

I, as the DPE can not give you those kinds of endorsements after the checkride (for the ride homw), because the practical exam is NOT an instructional flight. The airspeed endorsement as well as the others all require "instruction"

[3Dreaming]

Paul, here is another one that I disagree with in a way. You don't need the endorsement before the checkride. You do need it for the flight home if you pass, so it is a good idea to do them before hand.

Yes, you do need required endorsements before showing up to the checkride.

Your student needs to show up to the practical, with whatever endorsements they need to fly as PIC that day. In addition to the required "this student is ready for the practical exam" endorsements, others, including the tailwheel endorsement if appropriate, airspeed endorsement (everyone gets one of those now, above and below 87 Kts), and if we are flying in "airspace" during the practical, the airspace endorsement.

I, as the DPE can not give you those kinds of endorsements after the checkride (for the ride homw), because the practical exam is NOT an instructional flight. The airspeed endorsement as well as the others all require "instruction"

I know that the DPE can not provide the endorsement. I also know it is best to make the endorsements ahead of time, but where is the regulatory requirement that they must be done ahead of time? I don't mean to challenge you, but I would like to learn.

[SportPilot]

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[comperini]

I believe they would only need the endorsements that would enable them to act as PIC during the check ride since the DPE is not PIC. They would not need any endorsements that did not pertain such as class B or C if not flying in class B or C.

Correct.

And since the applicant had to have soloed prior to the practical, the other endorsements (airspeed, airspace if appropriate, tailwheel if appropriate) better have been given, since solo is the one other time that an applicant is PIC

[3Dreaming]

I believe they would only need the endorsements that would enable them to act as PIC during the check ride since the DPE is not PIC. They would not need any endorsements that did not pertain such as class B or C if not flying in class B or C.

Correct.

And since the applicant had to have soloed prior to the practical, the other endorsements (airspeed, airspace if appropriate, tailwheel if appropriate) better have been given, since solo is the one other time that an applicant is PIC

Not including tailwheel, a student pilot is required to have airspace endorsements under sub part C, but no where in sub part C is there a requirement for a airspeed endorsement. I think that would be covered in the aircraft specific endorsement that they are OK for solo in a XYZ aircraft. The airspace endorsement required by sub part J is different than the one required by sub part C for the student pilot. I know the checkride is kind of special circumstances, but at what point does a person go from operating under the rules sub part C to sub part J? Like I ask before, where do I find the regulation that says the endorsements for sub part J must be made prior to the checkride?

[SportPilot]

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[Merlinspop]

What about from the customer's perspective? It sounds like you're advocating only giving endorsements that are required for a student (subpart C) prior to the practical, leaving the required subpart J endorsements for afterward. As the customer, I would be livid to find out that after the DPE shakes my hand and says I passed that I couldn't start exercising my new privileges until I paid the instructor yet more money to write more endorsements in my logbook. Hopefully, I'm just misinterpreting the last few posts though.

[comperini]

but no where in sub part C is there a requirement for a airspeed endorsement.

Yes there is. 61.89(c)(5)

[SportPilot]

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[comperini]

So do we all agree that the airspeed, airspace (if you need it that day), and tailwheel endorsements (if you are using a tailwheel plane that day) are needed prior to the test?

Airspeed: IAW 61.89 and 61.327
Airspace: IAW 61.94 and 61.325
Tailwheel: IAW 61.31

In addition, if you are showing up for the practical exam, you need to have the required solo endorsements (otherwise, how can I accept your solo time as being legal?), plus the required "He's ready for the practical exam" endorsements.

[SportPilot]

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[3Dreaming]

So do we all agree that the airspeed, airspace (if you need it that day), and tailwheel endorsements (if you are using a tailwheel plane that day) are needed prior to the test?

Airspeed: IAW 61.89 and 61.327
Airspace: IAW 61.94 and 61.325
Tailwheel: IAW 61.31

In addition, if you are showing up for the practical exam, you need to have the required solo endorsements (otherwise, how can I accept your solo time as being legal?), plus the required "He's ready for the practical exam" endorsements.

I stand corrected on the airspeed endorsement, thank you. I missed it when I read through sub part C, because I was looking for the greater than less than 87kt instead of a reference to a different regulation number. My original statement was to airspace only. I agree that as a student you need the endorsements required by 61.94 prior to the checkride if you are operating in that airspace. I also know that if you are flying home in airspace that requires it you need the endorsement of 61.325. At what point does the required airspace endorsement change from 61.94 as a student pilot to 61.325 as a sport pilot.

[comperini]

At what point does the required airspace endorsement change from 61.94 as a student pilot to 61.325 as a sport pilot.

I would say at the beginning of the practical exam, because IAW Part 61, this will be the first time the applicant (student) can act as PIC of an aircraft with more than one person on board.

But you do bring up a good point, which may be more centered around the actual "wording" of the endorsement. And I think this might only be an issue for the airspace endorsement, because the tailwheel endorsement should refer to 61.31, and the airspeed endorsement should always refer to 61.327 (61.89 refers back to 61.327 as the standard for training).

If the applicant's airspace endorsement simply said "This person can fly here and here and here, because I gave him the required training of 61.94", then I suppose you could argue that the applicant does NOT have an endorsement that refers back to 61.325. Perhaps this is a good case where the wording on the endorsement used could refer to both regulations?

[3Dreaming]

The tailwheel endorsement is another interesting one. When implemented in 1991 a tailwheel endorsement was not required for a solo student pilot. The FAA didn't consider student solo time as PIC until August of 1997. Prior to this time the pre solo training and aircraft specific endorsements would have been all that was required for a student to fly solo in a tailwheel airplane.