Class D, C endorsements - recommendations?

[Horatio]

Hi all. I'm scheduled to get D and C training and (hopefully) endorsements next week. Reviewing AIM and relevant material over the weekend, but would appreciate any tips/advice, especially from any legacy LSA flyers, as I'll be flying the Luscombe, which has only a hand-held radio.

[deltafox]

Reference: http://youtu.be/VzRd16iEpnM

The first part of this video demonstrates my radio calls to enter a Class Bravo airspace. I think the keys are knowing where you are, knowing who you are talking to, and knowing what you want to do.

[CTLSi]

......

[FastEddieB]

If you'd like to head up to my neck of the woods, we could do a little trip up to Knoxville or over to Chattanooga for practice.

My CFI certificate is expired, but I would not mind flying with you "for fun".

Let me know.

[Horatio]

If you'd like to head up to my neck of the woods, we could do a little trip up to Knoxville or over to Chattanooga for practice.

My CFI certificate is expired, but I would not mind flying with you "for fun".

Let me know.

Thanks, Eddie. I may take you up on the offer. I'd love to see your bird up close.

[MrMorden]

What do you mean D & C training? A sport pilot (for private pilot no endorsement is necessary since it's part of the basic training) can get a solo flight into controlled airspace endorsement in any of the controlled airspaces. Once you get it, you can then fly into any of them.

Jeez, wrong again.

There is language specified for the airspace endorsement. The instructor can endorse you for just one of them, two, or all three. It's all up to the CFI. You could end up with three endorsements in your logbook, or just one. To give the endorsement(s), a CFI can require any amount of training that makes him or her comfortable with writing the endorsement.

[3Dreaming]

What do you mean D & C training? A sport pilot (for private pilot no endorsement is necessary since it's part of the basic training) can get a solo flight into controlled airspace endorsement in any of the controlled airspaces. Once you get it, you can then fly into any of them.

Jeez, wrong again.

There is language specified for the airspace endorsement. The instructor can endorse you for just one of them, two, or all three. It's all up to the CFI. You could end up with three endorsements in your logbook, or just one. To give the endorsement(s), a CFI can require any amount of training that makes him or her comfortable with writing the endorsement.

Andy, I'm sure there are those who disagree, but as a instructor the way I read it you are required to have training for operations in all 3 airspaces. Take a look at 61.325
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 5&rgn=div8
You can find the endorsement here.
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf
61.325, C. says you have to have training for all 3 airspaces. The endorsement says "or" for the airspace, because you can only operate in one type of airspace at a time.

[3Dreaming]

Just to add to this you don't have to do flight training in all types of airspace, you can just fly into one type. You do have to have ground training for all 3 types.

[MrMorden]

Andy, I'm sure there are those who disagree, but as a instructor the way I read it you are required to have training for operations in all 3 airspaces. Take a look at 61.325
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 5&rgn=div8
You can find the endorsement here.
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf
61.325, C. says you have to have training for all 3 airspaces. The endorsement says "or" for the airspace, because you can only operate in one type of airspace at a time.

I have talked to sport pilots with separate endorsements in their logbooks, earned at different times. I can't imagine the FAA would require you to have endorsements for C & B if you only ever want to fly into D.

EDIT:

Here is the language from the FAA documentation guidelines on this endorsement:

"I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined
he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C,
or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower."

I read the parentheses combined with "or" to read for the airspace type being endorsed. Logically an "or" operation indicates an option. In English the word "or" is generally used as an "inclusive or" operation, meaning that each individual option or all of the options might be possible. It would only mean you had to endorse for all three if there was an "and" operation instead of an or.

Sorry, my training in formal logic and linguistics is showing.

[CharlieTango]

...you are required to have training for operations in all 3 airspaces. Take a look at 61.325
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 5&rgn=div8
You can find the endorsement here.
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf
61.325, C. says you have to have training for all 3 airspaces. The endorsement says "or" for the airspace, because you can only operate in one type of airspace at a time.

So a student sport pilot's longest flight might likely be to transition a Bravo?

[3Dreaming]

I have talked to sport pilots with separate endorsements in their logbooks, earned at different times. I can't imagine the FAA would require you to have endorsements for C & B if you only ever want to fly into D.

That may very well be, but it doesn't make it right. Anyway, that is not how I see it. Here are the important highlighted portions from the regulation.

§61.325 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft at an airport within, or in airspace within, Class B, C, and D airspace, or in other airspace with an airport having an operational control tower?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

I don't see a choice about which airspace you can receive training for.

[FastEddieB]

I don't see a choice about which airspace you can receive training for.

Agreed - that sounds pretty clear.

[3Dreaming]

...you are required to have training for operations in all 3 airspaces. Take a look at 61.325
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 5&rgn=div8
You can find the endorsement here.
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf
61.325, C. says you have to have training for all 3 airspaces. The endorsement says "or" for the airspace, because you can only operate in one type of airspace at a time.

So a student sport pilot's longest flight might likely be to transition a Bravo?

I'm not quite sure what you picked up on, but I don't think that is what I said. 61.325 covers the endorsement for sport pilot not student pilot, and the other FAA PDF covers several different endorsements with the one required for 61.325 stuck somewhere in the middle of the document.

[MrMorden]

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

I don't see a choice about which airspace you can receive training for.

It may be that you have to obtain training in all three (in fact, if you have an SP you should have been trained in that already, IMO)...but you can receive the endorsement in a single airspace type, two, or all three as I pointed out above in my edited post.

[3Dreaming]

Andy, I read your edited post, and I think you are reading the meaning of the "or" incorrectly. 61.325 says you must have training in all 3 types of airspace. The endorsement says you have had training for operation in all 3 types of airspace. I think the "or" is used to keep the kinds of airspace separate. After all you can only fly in one type of airspace at a time.

6. Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From, Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: §61.325
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06