Class D, C endorsements - recommendations?

[3Dreaming]

I suspect I have been to almost as many CFI renewals as you and Tom (not combined). I got my CFI in 1967. I don't see any logic in the FAR that says you don't need flight training in class B or C airspace. I think I can read and interpret FAR's as well as you and/or Tom.

I don't see any logic in thinking that you need to do flight training in class B and C airspace for a sport pilot, when it is not required for a private or commercial pilot.

[drseti]

I think I can read and interpret FAR's as well as you and/or Tom.

I'm sure you can. The operative word here is "interpret." We all know that the FARs are often ambiguous, unclear, or open to interpretation. Thus, when you ask the same question of two different CFIs, you frequently get three different answers. This time, three CFIs are involved -- how many conflicting answers does that give us?

I don't think any the less of you when we disagree (nor do I think less of Tom when I disagree with him, which happens often enough...)

[3Dreaming]

Ground training is for the areas of aeronautical knowledge, and flight training is for areas of operation.

3 take offs and landings is definitely an area of operation.

The applicable flight rules of part 91for operations in class B, C, and D airspace would be a area of aeronautical knowledge.

The use of radios, communications, navigation systems/facilities, and radar services could be either or. There is no requirement that any of these be done in a specific type of airspace.

You don't need flight training for areas of aeronautical knowledge.

[SportPilot]

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[drseti]

You don't need flight training for areas of aeronautical knowledge.

That was pretty much my position, Tom (though I'd be the first to admit that we could both be wrong).

[drseti]

OK, gentlemen, I think we now know where everybody stands, and why. Clearly there are differences of opinion here. Can we all agree now to move forward?

[FastEddieB]

OK, gentlemen, I think we now know where everybody stands, and why. Clearly there are differences of opinion here. Can we all agree now to move forward?

Wait!

This was just getting interesting!!!

[SportPilot]

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[CTLSi]

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[sandpiper]

OK!! He's fired! OOPS, wait a minute, thats me.

Not really. What's that old saying, "a man who tries to teach himself how to fly has a fool for an instructor". Maybe that's not the quote but the idea is there.

[3Dreaming]

But wait...I'm changing my answer, not for student pilots, but for Sport Pilots. I do now see and agree with Tom and Paul. Item b. is clearly flight time and item c. is clearly ground training. I think item a. could legitimately be ground, flight, or both and would therefore be at the CFI's discretion as to what it takes to satisfy him that he has accomplished the required training and can do the endorsement. Therefore, if this is the case, there would be no need for multiple endorsements for a Sport Pilot. There should be no reason you couldn't accomplish the Sport Pilot training and make one endorsement if you determine a flight is not necessary to accomplish part a. for that particular Sport Pilot.

If you truly have changed your opinion, the discussion was worthwhile. Situations like this are the reason I participate in these long discussions. Usually when 2 people are on different sides on something like this one or both learn something new. I learned something new.

BTW, I think that we were basically in agreement from the beginning on the fact that a student pilot requires training in the specific airspace.

[3Dreaming]

But wait...I'm changing my answer, not for student pilots, but for Sport Pilots. I do now see and agree with Tom and Paul. Item b. is clearly flight time and item c. is clearly ground training. I think item a. could legitimately be ground, flight, or both and would therefore be at the CFI's discretion as to what it takes to satisfy him that he has accomplished the required training and can do the endorsement. Therefore, if this is the case, there would be no need for multiple endorsements for a Sport Pilot. There should be no reason you couldn't accomplish the Sport Pilot training and make one endorsement if you determine a flight is not necessary to accomplish part a. for that particular Sport Pilot.

So if item (b) can be done at an airport with a operating control tower in class G or E airspace there would be no legal requirement to fly in any class B, C, or D airspace? I'm not saying this is going to happen, only that it could happen.

[drseti]

So if item (b) can be done at an airport with a operating control tower in class G or E airspace

I think it would have to be an official FAA control tower, Tom. The "temporary tower" manned by volunteers at our annual June fly-in wouldn't count, as it's advisory only.

[SportPilot]

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[3Dreaming]

The temporary tower at Fond Du Lac Wisconsin is set up and run by the FAA during the week of EAA Airventure. The best I can tell from the NOTAM there is no mention of change in class of airspace from G to D. According to the NOTAM participation is required.