Is 2,000 AGL Enough?

[designrs]

As I think about the prospect of making long cross-countries, I'm beginning to think about if 2,000 AGL is high enough to be safe in mountain terrain? Having only flown here on the a East Coast I'm going to need additional training flying out West. Of course almost any aircraft can be caught in too much downdraft, especially on the wrong time of the wrong day. But what are the considerations specifically related to LSA performance and the 2,000 AGL limit above 10,000 feet? Say your LSA gives you a climb of 500 feet per minute, high & hot (if that is even realistic?) and you are flying under LSA privileges... how much better would you feel in an aircraft that would give you 1,000 feet per minute flying as a private pilot without the LSA altitude restriction? Thoughts on how to compare and manage risk?

In short, how manageable is an LSA to a Sport Pilot flying in mountainous terrain out West?

[CharlieTango]

#1 how do you interpret the rule? 2,000 AGL sounds black and white to me yet most interpret it loosely. The ability to climb to 2,000 AGL ahead of time makes a huge difference, terrain rises more steeply than you can climb. If you lack experience climbing in quickly rising mountainous terrain to arrive at the ridge or pass at or below 2,000 AGL can be a bad idea. If you have a background in soaring big mountains you might find that working ridges will buy you and extra 1,000' fpm and keep you within the letter of the rule. I seldom use the 2,000' exception to minimize my climbing and to keep the view close.

My hangar is in the lee of 13,000' terrain, there is high terrain in each direction and yet I was able to fly my SLSA under the light sport rule prior to the 2,000 AGL exception. It can be done and the highest terrain can be avoided. An example is to follow interstates.

The most frequent mistake a flat lander makes when flying in the high altitude west is doing high altitude take offs full rich, without leaning for best power. Most LSA have self-leaning Rotax engines as well as good short field performance and at least decent climb angles so in regards to take offs and initial climbs they can do pretty well.

The light wing loading is the biggest negative, you can get banged around a lot from wind shear. Under standing micro meteorology well enough to visualize and avoid lee side turbulence is an important skill.

[ct4me]

Yes, it is manageable and done every day by LSA fliers in the West. Unless there is good breeze, 2K should be adequate clearance. That, combined with picking a good route, will produce a safe trip. It also helps to fly in the early part of the day, before things get cooking. 'Flew no more than 12.5 on the whole trip between Phoenix and Seattle. Most could have been done at 10.5. Just give the biggest ranges a wide berth.

[Jim Stewart]

What Charlie Tango said about wind shear, aka mountain wave where I live. Good way to get a light sport ass-kicking.

[designrs]

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.
Glad to hear that the "Wild West" is LSA manageable.

What would be the best training resources for a flatlander and 150 hour new pilot to stay safe out West and in the mountains? (All resources considered, reading, video and actual flight training.)

[CharlieTango]

Flying west to east right to left on this vertical profile, is the 10,000' altitude limitation very useful? How do you interpret it, can you fly above 10,000' prior to being over terrain above 8,000'?

[CharlieTango]

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.
Glad to hear that the "Wild West" is LSA manageable.

What would be the best training resources for a flatlander and 150 hour new pilot to stay safe out West and in the mountains? (All resources considered, reading, video and actual flight training.)

http://www.amazon.com/FLYING-CONDITIONS ... B001GKUGXY

[dstclair]

I strongly suggest taking a mountain flying course from a CFI in the Rockies (or wherever you plan on flying initially in the west). It is an eye opening experience to actually experience density altitude, peak winds, etc. first-hand with a qualified instructor. Gave me a healthy respect for my 'book learning'.

[ct4me]

What can you guys say about "Mountain Flying" versus "BackCountry" flying, or even "Mountain/Canyon" Flying. It seems like Cross-Country flying across the tops of some mountain range would be a totally different set of skills than learning how to fly/land in the Canyons of Utah or Idaho.

[Jack Tyler]

Richard, a couple of add'l observations:
-- shop for your 'mountain flying' instructor by word of mouth. You'll find this training offered at almost every FBO/school out west but experience added to knowledge is probably the best mix. E.g. I'll be flying with Jeanne MacPherson out of Helena, MT in two weeks. Former chief pilot for the state of Montana, she's also an avid backcountry flier and has been recommended to me by a number of RAF folks, too. Aren't you located in Colorado, in the greater Denver area? If so, I'd suggest you talk with Pat Romano of Backcountry Aviation LLC.
-- You might find some of Pat's posted youtube videos to be entertaining but also demonstrate just how much skill some of these guys & gals develop. He's lameusernameguy on youtube and the link is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw72zU ... G298ClcXUQ
-- IME, limited tho' it is, there is a similarity between 'backcountry flying' and cross-country, point A to B flying. Guys I know who have the heavy lift backcountry a/c (C-185's, C-206's) can easily fly high enough to do A to B. But given their experience and familiarity with the high country, they will instead use the drainages where that makes sense, which is where the rivers run and the roads have been built. This means less climbing, less fuel burn, and similar elapsed flight times. Also better views out the window. <g>
-- I have not personally found a 2K AGL altitude to come with a guarantee for smooth air. Depending on the particular mix of variables, things can get rough at almost any altitude those of us in small planes might be flying at. That's why you so often hear the emphasis on flying early in the morning and/or late in the afternoon in the high country.

Just as one example, we (RAF) will be conducting wildlife research in a series of 12 backcountry settings in MT and ID between mid-June and late July. (From what we can tell, it will be the first scientifically rigorous examination of the impact of piston a/c noise on the breeding ability of multiple species of animals, which our experience tells us is minimal but which opponents of a/c ops in the backcountry claim is harmful). The researchers have to be flown into these remote settings, some of which have USFS ranger stations still resupplied to this day by mule and horse pack. Pilot pick-ups of gear & researchers begin at 0630 at Missoula International (near U of MT) so that they can be delivered, a/c unloaded, and the pilots able to return to their individual bases before things begin heating up. This just seems to be par for the course out in the high country during the summer.

[designrs]

Thank you all for the most excellent posts and guidance!
I will research all suggestions.

Particularly notable is the difference between going A to B,
vs. dropping down to land or sightsee.

Great advice.

[designrs]

it will be the first scientifically rigorous examination of the impact of piston a/c noise on the breeding ability of multiple species of animals, which our experience tells us is minimal but which opponents of a/c ops in the backcountry claim is harmful).

Jack, please be sure to let us know if piston aircraft can have a most positive effect on the breeding ability of our pilot species. I would be willing to volunteer for the study and participate most rigorously provided a very attractive study group is used.

Seriously Jack, it sounds like a most worthwhile project.
Best of luck with it!

[Merlinspop]

it will be the first scientifically rigorous examination of the impact of piston a/c noise on the breeding ability of multiple species of animals, which our experience tells us is minimal but which opponents of a/c ops in the backcountry claim is harmful).

Jack, please be sure to let us know if piston aircraft can have a most positive effect on the breeding ability of our pilot species. I would be willing to volunteer for the study and participate most rigorously provided a very attractive study group is used.

Seriously Jack, it sounds like a most worthwhile project.
Best of luck with it!

I thought all females dug round engines....

I, too, look forward to some reports on this (and pictures (airplanes and scenery; not elk porn)).

[MovingOn]

......

[CharlieTango]

Flying west to east right to left on this vertical profile, is the 10,000' altitude limitation very useful? How do you interpret it, can you fly above 10,000' prior to being over terrain above 8,000'?

I would start my climb sufficiently in advance so I reach altitude without getting below 2,000 agl or having to make any deviations in course. If my plane climbs at 500 fpm and I need to climb 10,000 feet, I would start the climb at least 20 minutes out. At 2 miles per minute, I would start the climb 40 miles out. Since the east/west VFR altitudes do not apply until 3,000 agl, I would level off 2,000 feet above the highest peak on my flight path and descend ASAP so as not to exceed 2,000 agl while flying above 10,000 feet.

If I read you correctly you are saying that you would bust the 2,000' AGL limitation when climbing but not when descending. Look at the vertical profile again, the critical terrain not only rises more steeply than you climb it also descends more quickly than you can descend when on a westerly heading (left to right)