Is 2,000 AGL Enough?

[snaproll]

I would recommend a mountain flying course which also covers the basics on reading the topography and estimating the location of updrafts and downdrafts based on wind direction, wind speed, and temperature. Additionally, hands on practice on some basic maneuvers as chandelles are hammerheads are useful in case the unplanned happens, i.e.. downdraft places you in a blind canyon where you have to turn around to climb out. VR.. Don

[MovingOn]

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[drseti]

if I "bust" the 2,000' rule for a few minutes, I don't think it would be a problem.

If you bust any FAR, whether inadvertantly or deliberately in the interest of safety, I would recommend that you file a report with the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System. ASRS forms are available on my website (http://avsport.org/docs/ASRS.pdf) and elsewhere. Should the FAA find out and decide to take enforcement action, timely filing of this form can grant you limited immunity. (Note: this does not hold for criminal activity, or TSA violations, which are zero-tolerance items).

[MovingOn]

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[designrs]

(Note: this does not hold for criminal activity, or TSA violations, which are zero-tolerance items).

Is that pretty much the only significant exclusions?

Of course most of us have heard about the immunity that is offered this way, yet at the same time self-incriminating oneself for minor oversights feels a bit like "kiss & tell".

One could surmise that most pilots likely have a few minor oversights in their "FAR closet".
Wouldn't it make you look like a "really bad boy" if you had to confess every one?

Thoughts on reconciling the decision to "kiss & tell"?
Metaphorically speaking, how often is it appropriate to "go to confession" after every minor sin?

[designrs]

Taking it a step further... suppose you hop the same 10,000 foot peak every 3 weeks. You climb to 2,000 AGL ahead of where the terrain rises (because you just can't climb that steeply). You are in compliance with the intent of the FAR, but not the letter of the FAR.

Would you file for immunity under ASRS every time?
Think that might be a problem for the FAA (and you)?
Or is that exactly what the FAA is looking for to better implement the FARs?

[drseti]

Metaphorically speaking, how often is it appropriate to "go to confession" after every minor sin?

(dons academic garb)

When I do aviation safety research, I access tons of (depersonalized) ASRS records as my data set. The details of the reported incidents give me a very good overview -- usually, of successful accident avoidance experiences. (After all, every incident reported to ASRS could conceivably have escaated into an accident, but didn't.) So, I mine this data for a good idea of what works (we already know what doesn't). The resulting publications have resulted in FAR and procedural changes that have improved the safety and efficiency of the US civil air transportation system. So, keep those reports coming, folks -- they find themselves in the hands of researchers who can catalyze positive change.

(removes academic garb)

[drseti]

Would you file for immunity under ASRS every time?

Yes, but in this case, it's not about the immunity. It's about you (and everybody else who does the same) helping to populate a data set that will be used to improve the FARs, and thus improve safety.

[MovingOn]

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[drseti]

One can only hope...

[newamiga]

I live in Colorado Springs and my home airport is at 6800 feet to start out. We get DA of 10K on hot days in the summer. I will tell you that my LSA with a Rotax 912 100HP does pretty decently in those conditions. We do fly into the mountains but only after getting mountain training. We will not fly into the mountains if the winds aloft are much more than 10 kts at 15000 feet. We aren't going to be at 15K but you need to know the direction and strength over the mountains to appreciate what it will do when the winds come over the mountains. We are out well before noon time. I have had one of the most beautiful flights ever into Buena Vista CO for breakfast. We finished and got back to the airport a little later than we wanted to. We got off a little after 11 AM. It was the craziest flight home I have ever experienced. I was 2000 ft AGL for the majority of the flight out. I had significant up and down drafts. When I landed I just sat in my plane and called my wife and said, I am going to just sit here for a bit It was very scary.

The bottom line is that 2K AGL is a good idea. Even when I fly out of the mountains I still stay at least 2K AGL most times in Colorado. We get significant mountain wave and other thermal activity that can really rock you and I prefer to have altitude as my friend.

Carl

[designrs]

I live in Colorado Springs and my home airport is at 6800 feet to start out. We get DA of 10K on hot days in the summer. I will tell you that my LSA with a Rotax 912 100HP does pretty decently in those conditions. We do fly into the mountains but only after getting mountain training. We will not fly into the mountains if the winds aloft are much more than 10 kts at 15000 feet. We aren't going to be at 15K but you need to know the direction and strength over the mountains to appreciate what it will do when the winds come over the mountains. We are out well before noon time. I have had one of the most beautiful flights ever into Buena Vista CO for breakfast. We finished and got back to the airport a little later than we wanted to. We got off a little after 11 AM. It was the craziest flight home I have ever experienced. I was 2000 ft AGL for the majority of the flight out. I had significant up and down drafts. When I landed I just sat in my plane and called my wife and said, I am going to just sit here for a bit It was very scary.

The bottom line is that 2K AGL is a good idea. Even when I fly out of the mountains I still stay at least 2K AGL most times in Colorado. We get significant mountain wave and other thermal activity that can really rock you and I prefer to have altitude as my friend.

Carl

Excellent first-hand and real-world experience along with some practical rules of thumb. a THANK YOU!
Any other additional comments?

[FastEddieB]

Of course most of us have heard about the immunity that is offered this way, yet at the same time self-incriminating oneself for minor oversights feels a bit like "kiss & tell".

I was under the impression that these reports were anonymous. That the report was dissociated from the reporter early on in the process.

Perhaps drseti can expound on that.

BTW, to my recollection I have filed exactly one ASRS report. It concerned the difficulty I once had in discerning overlapping airspace on a handheld GPS, which led me to accidentally find myself in military Class D airspace without talking to them. It was an open cockpit biplane, making unfolding and reading a sectional a real pain. Nothing ever came of the incident, nor the report, AFAIK, though as drseti says, the data therein may have had dome use to researchers.

[MrMorden]

You know, if they get enough NASA reports for this mountain climbing situation, it's possible the FAR could be amended to add, "except as necessary to climb or descend due to rapid changes in ground elevation."

I'm curious, is there a case where the FAA changed regs in response to large numbers of filed ASRS forms? Just wondering if the hope they would make a difference is based on a precedent.

[Jack Tyler]

As this discussion shifts towards talk of busting FARs and filing ASRS reports, it's sounding a bit surreal to me. Let's remember what 61.315 says:
"(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
(11) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL or 2,000 feet AGL, whichever is higher."
So...one is not required to fly 2,000 AGL nor, as several of us have pointed out, does that AGL altitude necessarily provide you with a smooth, safe ride. Richard's original Q was about the 'how to' of flying out West among the Big Rocks. Especially for those of us flying small aircraft with fixed pitch props - and so robbed not once but twice of horsepower - the notion of climbing high well in advance for the purpose of clearing some pinnacle is just not a common practice nor, for us, a practical one. Nor are you busting a FAR by clearing that pinnacle at less than 2,000' AGL.

I guess what's missing to me is context: Even basic mountain flying tutorials will cover things like monitoring the 'backcountry frequency' (122.9) because you'll be down low with the other planes flying the major drainages, making calls in advance of a bend in the drainage one is flying (aka: announcing before a blind corner) and normally flying on the right side of drainages except when it's safe the use the lift on the sunny side and/or needing to avoid downdrafts. I think you'll find the circling-to-climb to fly mountain-top summit-clearing routes is a theoretical notion but not a description of how the real world works out West.

And let's add in the risk of FAR busting. It goes without saying that the FARs are to a degree built on the bodies of dead pilots and, sure, the ASRS system can be a wonderful (and anonymous BTW) service to every kind of pilot. But the reality is that you will probably not often enjoy radar coverage (aka: scrutiny) when flying in the mountains, and the combo of topography and weather dictate far more what is safe than the rule book. Or at least that's my take so far.

Paul's love of data analysis aside, for those who have a practical curiosity about the ASRS system I recommend just visiting here and opening a few back issues of CALLBACK: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback.html It mostly speaks to CRM and FAR-related procedural detail, not that there aren't gems to be mined. It will give you a feel for the 'how' of what you write when you need to use the system. <g> And FYI I've filed several of these and never heard a peep in reply or consequence.