Rudder Pedals are backwards!

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zaitcev
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by zaitcev »

Jim Stewart wrote:Read the whole thread. Lots of people had problems with it. I had serious problems with it and it cost me about 40 more hours of training to get over it.
An astonishing admission if I've seen one.

BTW, I suspect that early airplane designers were inspired by boats more than sleds.
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AJChenMPH
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by AJChenMPH »

This thread has been beaten to death, but I'll pile on to add another twist:

On my first flight, I didn't have problems with the rudder pedals while in flight, but I couldn't taxi worth a d*** because I was also reverse-controlling. I thought about it and realized (similar to the snowsled, shopping cart, etc.) it was because I've been an alpine skier for the past 30+ years (7 of which were as a ski patroller).

When you first learn to ski, you're in the proverbial V-shaped snowplow. To turn left, you load up and put pressure on the right ski; and vice versa. Most people stop snowplowing after they build up some skill. However, as a ski patroller, I was constantly in a snowplow, whether it was between the handles of the sled, or doing work along the edge of the trail.

It ultimately took me two or three hops to work that out of my taxiing...but strangely have not had the problem in the air.
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BrianL99
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by BrianL99 »

I've read a lot of whacky Internet threads on various subjects through the years, but having read this one today, I think we have a new leader in the clubhouse. This thread just took over the #1 spot, sneaking ahead of a thread about what kind of wax to use on your golf clubs.

As at least one person pointed out, you move any control in a given direction and if you don't like what it does, move it the other way. It sort of like a 3 year old touching a hot burner on the stove ... how many times do you have to try it, before you get the hang of it?

I had to laugh when a couple of folks brought up "counter steering" on a motorcycle. That's some of the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever read. If you ask 20 motorcycle counter steering advocates how to do it an how it works, you'll get 20 different interpretations. Ask a real motorcycle racer about it, they'll laugh in your face.

I can't think of a single implement that doesn't adhere to the principal that you either "push" or "pull" to go in a given direction. You usually only have to decide which hand or foot you're going to use.
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CharlieTango
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by CharlieTango »

BrianL99 wrote:...I had to laugh when a couple of folks brought up "counter steering" on a motorcycle. That's some of the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever read...
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drseti
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by drseti »

Looks to me as though he's pushing left to go left. :)
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MovingOn
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by MovingOn »

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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by drseti »

That's kind of what I do (and what I mean when I use the term counter-steering). However, initiating a right turn, it's not so much that I'm turning the handlebars to the left, but rather a matter of applying slight pressure to the right hand grip (that is, pressing forward slightly on the right). The relevance of all this to flying is that, similarly, we don't really move the rudder pedals, so much as applying some pressure to them in the direction in which we wish to initiate a turn. (Taildragger pilots are generally more adept at this than those who fly tricycle gear aircraft).

Oh, and the way rudder use is conventionally taught is that you bank (with aileron) in the direction you wish to turn, and apply enough rudder to overcome adverse yaw. An alternative approach is to yaw the nose (with rudder) in the direction you wish to turn, and use the ailerons as necessary to overcome adverse roll. If you apply both controls simultaneously, the result is exactly the same - the only difference is in how you think about it. (Yes, you have to think about it at first, until you've trained your muscle memory. Then, it becomes automatic.)
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MovingOn
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by MovingOn »

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drseti
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by drseti »

Yes, that's the way it's traditionally taught. Works fine when you're trying to stay coordinated in flight. Not so well when you're deliberately trying to initiate a turn by leading with rudder, following through with aileron (Cub style).
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BrianL99
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by BrianL99 »

Counter steering.jpg
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CTLSi
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by CTLSi »

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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by drseti »

CTLSi wrote:Which force is greater? Probably the rudder push, so applying aileron ahead of the rudder push makes a little smoother turn than just rolling over and correcting the yaw after the turn is initiated.
Of course, that's highly aircraft-dependent. In most LSAs, the aircraft is indeed more sensitive to yawing motion than it is to rolling motion. You can test that (at a safe altitude). From cruise, initiate a turn with just aileron, and see how long it takes the plane to respond. Then do the same with just rudder -- probably, you'll get a quicker response. If my objective is to initiate the turn right now, I'll lead with rudder pressure, and then follow through with aileron. Gets me heading in the desired direction most quickly.

Now, as for the cartoon Brian posted (very clever, BTW) -- if you are an airplane pilot, and want to be really confused, try flying a weight shift control (trike). Everything is backward!
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Jim Stewart
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by Jim Stewart »

MovingOn wrote:As far as I know, on a motorcycle or bicycle, to turn left you lean to the left and turn the handlebars to the left. However, to initiate the lean to the left, you cause the tires to track slightly to the right of the center of gravity. To do this, you turn the handlebars to the right for an instant, then back to the left.
According to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, the proper way to turn a motorcycle is to apply pressure to the bars in the opposite way that you want to turn. The pressure will cause the bike to bank in the opposite direction (because of gyro and tire contact forces). When the desired amount of bank is reached, the pressure is eased up. It's called countersteering and it is far more accurate and quick than throwing your weight around, the obvious way of steering a motorcycle.

AFAIK, countersteering doesn't work on a bicycle. Probably because there's not enough mass in the front wheel to create a gyro effect.
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by FastEddieB »

Jim Stewart wrote: AFAIK, countersteering doesn't work on a bicycle. Probably because there's not enough mass in the front wheel to create a gyro effect.
Yes, it does.

If you're comfortable riding hands-off, sit upright and lightly push on the right handlebar and see what happens.

Hint: you will not turn left.
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MovingOn
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Re: Rudder Pedals are backwards!

Post by MovingOn »

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