Aiming for your touch down point

[dstclair]

A low-time SP posted a question on another forum on how to land in gusty crosswinds. One of the suggestions was:

If you are coming in short and add power, be sure to push ahead to compensate. You do not want to change pitch attitude. Therefore, when you pull the power back out you are still in trim.
A powered approach that is high may need power reduced, flaps and a slip. Be sure to not put the nose down to "aim" at the touchdown point. That will only add speed which increases lift which will make the problem worse.

Confession time. I'm not a low-time SP but was feeling that my crosswind landings were getting a bit sloppy. Went out one day to practice in crosswinds of around 15-18kts, assuming it was just rust. Landings that were my 'norm' (idle power abeam the numbers and gliding in without touching power) were fine. The ones where I added power were not so good (floating or small ballooning). After reading the above suggestion and reflecting on the results, I was pretty sure I was guilty of aiming at the original touchdown point when I added power even if my target should've changed. Tested the theory out yesterday and, voila, much better landings on the couple approaches I had to add a touch of power.

[Torque]

Pitch for speed and power for altitude. Do this and you will not have a problem. I come in high with a big descent rate. As I flair I add a bit of power to arrest by descent. I try to go vertical for a short time before I touch the mains down or do a three point.
I do this in case of engine failure I can glide to the runway. I even do this when crapping or slipping.
How I fly.

Tony

[MovingOn]

.......

[FastEddieB]

Old thread, but let me repeat...

...I think using power routinely at any point in the flare can be a crutch to cover up something else that's going on.

Plus, it adds another variable in at a time when most pilots kinda have their hands full already.

Does not apply to all aircraft (jets, nose heavy 210's and Cherokee 6's and twins and the like), but most small planes land just fine power off.

[Torque]

When I say add power we are talking maybe 200 rpm or so. No idea I do not look at the tach in this portion of the flight. But its just enough power to make a touchdown you do not feel.
Depends not on the age of the thread, as long as its on the board people will read it. If you do not want anyone to post to old threads close them, but then how can anyone learn from closed threads.

Tony

[FastEddieB]

Tony,

I was just pointing out it was an old thread, that's all.

Just curious - what do you think would happen if you started landing at idle, and why?

[Torque]

How I do it......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6q2VKsvQEQ

I come in at such a steep angle you MUST add a little power or you are slamming the ground. To me if I feel the landing..The plane was slammed onto the turf. I fly the airplane to the ground not let gravity put me there. I can do this in a three point or a wheel landing.
Now do not get me wrong. I have bounced landings, but that is not my goal. A bounce is anytime the mains come back up. 1 inches is a bounce. I want smooth flight from take off to roll out on landing. I expect nothing but this in my flying. If I can not do this something is wrong.

Tony

[CharlieTango]

I come in at such a steep angle you MUST add a little power or you are slamming the ground.

I don't buy that. Steep approaches retain kinetic energy, some of which you will loose rounding out and flaring. You can avoid slamming with engine power or kinetic energy.

[Torque]

My style of landing is not aiming for a certain touch down point but to make the most unnoticed touch down one can make. I like to go vertical and hold her off just long enough to just KISS the turf, sometimes I add the power to do a wheel landing again just kissing the turf. No slamming it down. Again slamming it down sounds like a real hard landing. No its not, its one where you feel the wheels touch the turf.
Notice I do not say runway for this gives the idea of concrete. I do not land on paved runway's unless I am holding a ticket in my hand. Most do not even know I added power. I asked one man watching me land one day if he could hear the engine rev as I landed. He said no he could not, that is how little of power that needs to be added.
I am constantly adjusting power through out my descent to land. Even coming in steep its not a glide as one would expect for I am adjusting pitch to control speed a throttle to control descent or to stretch out the glide.
One thing I will do is hold her off long enough to burn up some runway. Turf gets a little rough sometimes taxing. No since in landing 1000' from my turn when I could land 400' from it by holding the airplane inches off the runway and touching down a little farther down.
I learned early, never remove your hand from the throttle. Made that mistake once..once..

Tony

[deltafox]

An interesting discussion. One of the thrills of flying is that "squeak" when the tires just kiss the surface. The trick has always been trying to do that consistently. No magic, just practice, practice, practice. I've found that ANY power in the flare will have me floating forever. So while I'll make poser adjustments throughout the approach once I begin the roundout I have the throttle at idle.

I use this video for a discussion topic with students: http://www.screencast.com/t/rWrqsfEl

...and for practice: http://www.screencast.com/t/oqK12Diy

[Merlinspop]

Tony, could you clarify what you mean by "going vertical."

[Torque]

I am sorry that should read..Horizontal not vertical.

MY airplane is so draggy I can add a little power on flare and she will not float down the runway like most. To never touch the throttle on landing is just not how I fly.
I am talking soft field landings here on turf. This is how I do it. I have never landed on pavement but I would say I would do it the same. Meaning trying to make my landings as soft as possible.

Tony

[Torque]

An interesting discussion. One of the thrills of flying is that "squeak" when the tires just kiss the surface. The trick has always been trying to do that consistently. No magic, just practice, practice, practice. I've found that ANY power in the flare will have me floating forever. So while I'll make poser adjustments throughout the approach once I begin the roundout I have the throttle at idle.

I use this video for a discussion topic with students: http://www.screencast.com/t/rWrqsfEl

...and for practice: http://www.screencast.com/t/oqK12Diy

The way I do an engine out landing is not the same way I do a soft field landing. On an engine out I am carrying extra energy to make sure I can do my flare and not stall her at this point. Why I come in so steep. If my engine quits I am trading this altitude for energy. If the engine don't quit I am managing this altitude using pitch and throttle.

My powered landing are nothing like my engine out landings. How many really practice an engine out landing by shutting the engine off and landing. When you loose an engine you will need to know this. I never did this type of landing and when I did in fact loose and engine I learned a lot. I did as I state here. I kept my speed up and flew her to the ground like a Bob Hoover move or how he does it. Its about energy when you loose and engine.

On a normal landing its about pitch and power management. To say its not about power management is wrong. How you manage your power is up to you. I use pitch and throttle. If you get this down aiming for the numbers is simple.

At the angle I am coming in and holding the speed, I am almost doing a falling leaf. To go from this to a landing power is needed. I do not point the nose down during this landing but holding the nose up. Again pitch and throttle.

Tony

[drseti]

On an engine out I am carrying extra energy to make sure I can do my flare and not stall her at this point.

I understand technique varies from one aircraft to the next, Tony, and I certainly respect your right to choose what works for you -- but this is most definitely not what I teach my primary students. In my teaching style, it's all about wanting to stall in the flare -- just inches above the runway. In fact, when we practice power-off stalls, it is for the purpose of learning proper full-stall landing technique. The practice maneuver starts in a power-off glide (at a safe altitude), in landing configuration and at normal approach speed, while lined up with a road, field, or some other imaginary runway. The runway is assumed to be at a specified altitude (typically a couple of thousand feet AGL). Up to that point, airspeed must be held constant. As that "runway" altitude is approached, the student applies back-pressure to start a gentle round-out (the flare), ignoring airspeed and bringing the plane level (so no further altitude is lost), and then increasing back pressure to bring the nose up to a specified pitch angle (the landing attitude) as the airspeed decreases. Holding the plane nose high at a constant altitude (just as you would do directly over the runway), critical angle of attack is exceeded, and the plane begins to buffet. This is the stall, at which point (in an actual landing) runway contact occurs. Since there is no runway directly under the wheels, the maneuver continues with a stall recovery, which is just a go-around. You relax back-pressure slightly to achieve normal climb-out attitude, while smoothly adding full power and just enough rudder pressure to overcome engine torque, and continue to hold runway heading. Then, climb out as you normally would, having just converted a landing to a takeoff. (Call it a touch-and-go without the touch.)

I admit that this is not the way stalls are normally taught, because the objective is usually stated as "to do stalls", rather than "to learn how to land." As a consequence (and maybe because every student has heard of the dreaded stall/spin accident), most students don't enjoy stalls, think they're something to avoid at all cost, and insist that the best way to avoid a spin is never stall the airplane.

Since a stall is simply a loss of lift from the wing, and since this is required in order to land, those students who say they'll never do a stall are still up there...

On a normal landing its about pitch and power management.

Again, if that works for you, fine -- but in my curriculum it's all about airspeed and energy management. If landings required power management, glider pilots would be in big trouble!

How you manage your power is up to you. I use pitch and throttle.

Actually, Tony, you do indeed use throttle to control power. But as I see it, pitch in no way controls power -- it controls airspeed.

[FastEddieB]

Ummm...

...ditto?

My nickname used to be "The Professor".

Am I wrong to be reminded of this?