Had a rough flight lesson today. Got a few questions.

[N918KT]

Today, I went flying with my CFI on a cross country flight from Queen City to Doylestown, PA. I came to the flight lesson prepared with preflight planning done before hand (I planned for a cross country flight from Queen City to Doylestown to Central Jersey Regional and back to Queen City, but we didn't fly that route today) with info on route, directions, alternate airports, ground speeds, and fuel needed for the flight.

After the having him discussing and reviewing the route to Doylestown and back, we preflighted the Sportstar MAX and departed Queen City Airport. Takeoff was almost a non-issue. It was the enroute and arriving at Doylestown that was the problem. I had a little trouble multitasking such as holding the sectional chart and flying the plane at the same time. And for some part, when my CFI asked me a question about the airport info, I had to remember the airport info either from my head or by looking at the sectional chart, which would drift me off course somehow. Also, spotting landmarks and waypoints on the ground was somewhat of a challenge. As we near Doylestown Airport, I began searching for the airport. My cousins actually live near that airport with a small pond near their house, so even though I didn't tell my CFI that I was trying to search for a small pond, I tried to look for it in the air but couldn't find it. Eventually, it wasn't until 2 miles from the airport that I found that airport. Landing at Doylestown in the traffic pattern was where I felt I had the most trouble with. My CFI kept reminding me to look at the airport while glancing down at my airspeed indicator once every 10 seconds. I noticed that I have been slow to correct my flying and lining up with the runway. The CFI had to help with the throttle during landing. On the first attempt, we ballooned and kept ballooning too far down the runway and we had to make a go around. From my CFI's point of view, he noticed that I kept starring at the glass panel in front of me, and turned off the glass panel in front of me so I can only see the analog airspeed indicator and the runway. We made it down on the second attempt, but it was not the best landing. The takeoff and enroute back to Queen City Airport was for the most part a non-event. The landing was a non-event too at Queen City with my CFI helping me with the throttle.

For the most part, I thought today's flight lesson was not good. My CFI told me it may be because I had not flown in 2 weeks and my flying was rusty and my skills are in regression. I felt that I take a few steps back. He did comment that I came to the flight lesson prepared with the flight planning. He also told me that I should practice crew/cockpit resource management when flying, such as having the sectional chart folded to the region of the flight, and having a little piece of paper handy with airport info, frequencies, runways, etc so that I don't have to fumble with the chart or remember the info off the top of my head. For today's flight lesson so far, it seems that I had lost some confidence in my ability to fly an airplane. Hopefully it is temporary.

We are going to fly another cross country flight from Queen City to Doylestown to Central Jersey Regional and back to Queen City next weekend if the conditions allow.

Now for some questions I hope you can answer for me.

1. I heard about this thing called the learning plateau. Is there a difference between not being current on flying, and encountering a learning plateau? Are the same effects of those two the same? Do learning plateaus occur before solo?

2. Do CFIs usually have presolo students fly dual cross countries or plan a cross country flight before their first solo? It seems that I already flown a dual cross country to Lancaster and back, to Doylestown and back, and now we are going to do a cross country flight to 2 airports and back maybe next week. I thought cross country flying and planning are done after solo.

I'm sorry for the long rant.

[FlyingForFun]

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[FlyingForFun]

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[N918KT]

Actually, I started training in 2009, and took lessons on and off for the past 4 years while switching flight schools a few times. This is my 5th flight school I switched to, and I started training at this school since early June.

I try to fly every weekend as often as possible before heading back to college in late August. Hopefully, I can get to my first solo at least by then.

[deltafox]

Have faith in your instructor. The questions you ask here should be directed to him. I'm sure he will share his reasoning with you. Also, buy a kneeboard.

[Jack Tyler]

K918KT:

I'm not a CFI. Moreover, there are a series of issues associated with your flight training and related to your Q's that we don't have a full (let alone, common) view of here. So jumping in with absolute A's to your Q's wouldn't just be back-seat driving. It probably qualifies as back-seat driving from another car.

Having said that, I see some red flags that would surely trouble me if I were in your shoes. First, you have expressed the hope here that you can solo before returning to college. Yet you & your instructor are pursuing cross-country training - a challenging and new set of skills for any student new to them - before reaching the solo goal. IMO this should discussed openly & specifically with your CFI, the goals to the discussion being that you should understand his reasoning and that, if he sticks with the plan for yet another cross-country, you agree with his preference. If possible, you should have the discussion face-to-face. Issues of this nature are difficult because, while the CFI is the experienced member of the duo, the student is the customer. If you've already been thru 5 flight schools, you probably appreciate the fact you DO have a say in this training regimen working.

Second, I wonder how old and how experienced your CFI is. I have NO way to judge this...but what you describe does fit an all too frequent dynamic where the instructor builds hours at the expense of the student soloing. Because your flying has been infrequent over the last 3+ years, we can't simply ask you how many hours you've put in your logbook and then guess if the current instructor is doing his job well enough. Still, I have to wonder if the solo-prep replacement with c/c training is defensible. It certainly doesn't strike me as a generally logical approach, even if your landings are weak or variable at this point. I've seen what you describe in Jax flight schools and they have been simply unethical, self-serving behavior by CFIs.

Finally, your struggles with your first c/c are IME pretty typical because c/c flying incorporates an expanding set of skills, both in how to prepare for and how to fly it. It may simply be your incomplete description but I see no evidence that the instructor sat down for an instructional session on the ground with you, preparing you for each phase of the first planned c/c flight, before the day the flight was intended. You planned for one flight (without advance guidance, your comments infer), the instructor announced a different route, and you two then did chart prep before boarding the plane. Not at all an optimum sequence for a student, IMO.

A few suggestions: How are you now prepping for a c/c flight? Foreflight? DUATS? Lockheed/Martin's new flight advisory service? (This last choice is such an improvement, and might be very helpful for you. See https://www.lmfsweb.afss.com/Website/ ). Whatever tool(s) you use, printing out the in-flight routing log - these come in a canned, soup-to-nuts format on a single small page - can be very helpful. You then take this log, work your way thru the flight with a chart in front of you, and annotate the log in ways that would be helpful. E.g. adding the CTAF & ASOS/ATIS freqs at both ends. Noting where or when in each leg the noteworthy ground reference point(s) might be. When you are done, you have not only prepared for the flight but you are taking that preparation with you in hard copy. And to be sure, if you don't have a kneeboard you might want to make or get one. (It doesn't have to be fancy. It does have to stay in one place on your lap and have a clip of some kind to secure the log and/or chart). You will notice that even these simple suggestions illustrate how a c/c flight differs from what you've experienced to date).

In my opinion, you need to have a discussion with your CFI, and you have a right to be satisfied with the decision to do yet another c/c flight before soloing.

[Merlinspop]

I'll leave the discussion about your training and all that to other, more experienced members. Except for this... ask for the school's syllabus and then ask where you are on it. If you've bounced between schools (nothing wrong with that), ask where the holes are between 'lesson 1' and wherever you currently are and make your instructor sit down and write out a plan to patch those holes... then stick to the syllabus from there (accepting that weather and other factors may cause slight variations).

There's a lot to keep your mind and body busy while flying. It takes time and repetition to become competent at juggling all of them, let alone mastering them. Give yourself a break!
- If you don't have a knee board, get one.
- Make notes for yourself! Write out a 'data block' of vital information for your destination and alternate airports: Runways, TPA, freqs, etc. That way it is readily at hand and you don't have the clutter of the sectional to filter out when you need to refer to the info. With time, you'll be able to focus in on that directly from the chart, but no need to try to do that now.
- When your performance is not as good as you'd like (your first landing attempt), you HAVE to learn to glean what you did wrong, make adjustments then forget about it! Calm down, relax and give it another go. If you dwell on the previous bad experience, you're just going to make it more difficult to get right.
- Disregard the creases on your sectional and make new ones so that your entire route is visible, or at least only requires you to flip it over. Use the clip on the knee board you bought! This won't be possible when you make longer flights, but most training XCs aren't that long.
- Don't forget to enjoy yourself. That means not to let yourself get frustrated. Things don't look the same at 2000 AGL as they do at 0 AGL. Note every landmark in relationship to railroad tracks, streams/rivers, major highways, bridges. Those things are usually pretty easy to spot. If you know that the landmark you're looking for (for example) is just east of were a RR crosses an interstate, let those features guide your eyes into the spot.

Anyway... hope some of this helps.

Oh.... did I say "Have Fun!"?

[FlyingForFun]

Delete

[deltafox]

Reference: http://www.iaftp.org/2013/06/the-flight ... ationship/

"Students – trust your own sense of how you are being treated. Does your instructor treat you with respect? Is he or she honest, forthright and forthcoming with the information, both technical and personal, you need to make your training successful? Are you open and honest with your instructor? Are you willing and able to let him or her know when you don’t understand or when you feel you may need more or less practice with a concept or skill? Do you have a feeling of trust for your instructor?"

[N918KT]

K918KT:

I'm not a CFI. Moreover, there are a series of issues associated with your flight training and related to your Q's that we don't have a full (let alone, common) view of here. So jumping in with absolute A's to your Q's wouldn't just be back-seat driving. It probably qualifies as back-seat driving from another car.

Having said that, I see some red flags that would surely trouble me if I were in your shoes. First, you have expressed the hope here that you can solo before returning to college. Yet you & your instructor are pursuing cross-country training - a challenging and new set of skills for any student new to them - before reaching the solo goal. IMO this should discussed openly & specifically with your CFI, the goals to the discussion being that you should understand his reasoning and that, if he sticks with the plan for yet another cross-country, you agree with his preference. If possible, you should have the discussion face-to-face. Issues of this nature are difficult because, while the CFI is the experienced member of the duo, the student is the customer. If you've already been thru 5 flight schools, you probably appreciate the fact you DO have a say in this training regimen working.

Second, I wonder how old and how experienced your CFI is. I have NO way to judge this...but what you describe does fit an all too frequent dynamic where the instructor builds hours at the expense of the student soloing. Because your flying has been infrequent over the last 3+ years, we can't simply ask you how many hours you've put in your logbook and then guess if the current instructor is doing his job well enough. Still, I have to wonder if the solo-prep replacement with c/c training is defensible. It certainly doesn't strike me as a generally logical approach, even if your landings are weak or variable at this point. I've seen what you describe in Jax flight schools and they have been simply unethical, self-serving behavior by CFIs.

Finally, your struggles with your first c/c are IME pretty typical because c/c flying incorporates an expanding set of skills, both in how to prepare for and how to fly it. It may simply be your incomplete description but I see no evidence that the instructor sat down for an instructional session on the ground with you, preparing you for each phase of the first planned c/c flight, before the day the flight was intended. You planned for one flight (without advance guidance, your comments infer), the instructor announced a different route, and you two then did chart prep before boarding the plane. Not at all an optimum sequence for a student, IMO.

A few suggestions: How are you now prepping for a c/c flight? Foreflight? DUATS? Lockheed/Martin's new flight advisory service? (This last choice is such an improvement, and might be very helpful for you. See https://www.lmfsweb.afss.com/Website/ ). Whatever tool(s) you use, printing out the in-flight routing log - these come in a canned, soup-to-nuts format on a single small page - can be very helpful. You then take this log, work your way thru the flight with a chart in front of you, and annotate the log in ways that would be helpful. E.g. adding the CTAF & ASOS/ATIS freqs at both ends. Noting where or when in each leg the noteworthy ground reference point(s) might be. When you are done, you have not only prepared for the flight but you are taking that preparation with you in hard copy. And to be sure, if you don't have a kneeboard you might want to make or get one. (It doesn't have to be fancy. It does have to stay in one place on your lap and have a clip of some kind to secure the log and/or chart). You will notice that even these simple suggestions illustrate how a c/c flight differs from what you've experienced to date).

In my opinion, you need to have a discussion with your CFI, and you have a right to be satisfied with the decision to do yet another c/c flight before soloing.

First off, I don't think my CFI is a kind of guy that would take advantage of me. He is really a nice guy but kept reminding me more than he should to keep flying the airplane properly.

Second, the reason why we had a different and a shorter cross country is because my CFI had another student after me and he told me to come later than the usual arrival time because of adverse weather.

[RyanShort1]

First off, I don't think my CFI is a kind of guy that would take advantage of me. He is really a nice guy but kept reminding me more than he should to keep flying the airplane properly.

Second, the reason why we had a different and a shorter cross country is because my CFI had another student after me and he told me to come later than the usual arrival time because of adverse weather.

I've had some students do a X/C prior to solo - usually because they need more practice with straight and level and similar concepts, and sometimes just to get them out of the pattern for a break. Sometimes you can just see that a student needs a changeup flight to get them thinking outside of their box.

Ryan

[N918KT]

K918KT:

I'm not a CFI. Moreover, there are a series of issues associated with your flight training and related to your Q's that we don't have a full (let alone, common) view of here. So jumping in with absolute A's to your Q's wouldn't just be back-seat driving. It probably qualifies as back-seat driving from another car.

Having said that, I see some red flags that would surely trouble me if I were in your shoes. First, you have expressed the hope here that you can solo before returning to college. Yet you & your instructor are pursuing cross-country training - a challenging and new set of skills for any student new to them - before reaching the solo goal. IMO this should discussed openly & specifically with your CFI, the goals to the discussion being that you should understand his reasoning and that, if he sticks with the plan for yet another cross-country, you agree with his preference. If possible, you should have the discussion face-to-face. Issues of this nature are difficult because, while the CFI is the experienced member of the duo, the student is the customer. If you've already been thru 5 flight schools, you probably appreciate the fact you DO have a say in this training regimen working.

Second, I wonder how old and how experienced your CFI is. I have NO way to judge this...but what you describe does fit an all too frequent dynamic where the instructor builds hours at the expense of the student soloing. Because your flying has been infrequent over the last 3+ years, we can't simply ask you how many hours you've put in your logbook and then guess if the current instructor is doing his job well enough. Still, I have to wonder if the solo-prep replacement with c/c training is defensible. It certainly doesn't strike me as a generally logical approach, even if your landings are weak or variable at this point. I've seen what you describe in Jax flight schools and they have been simply unethical, self-serving behavior by CFIs.

Finally, your struggles with your first c/c are IME pretty typical because c/c flying incorporates an expanding set of skills, both in how to prepare for and how to fly it. It may simply be your incomplete description but I see no evidence that the instructor sat down for an instructional session on the ground with you, preparing you for each phase of the first planned c/c flight, before the day the flight was intended. You planned for one flight (without advance guidance, your comments infer), the instructor announced a different route, and you two then did chart prep before boarding the plane. Not at all an optimum sequence for a student, IMO.

A few suggestions: How are you now prepping for a c/c flight? Foreflight? DUATS? Lockheed/Martin's new flight advisory service? (This last choice is such an improvement, and might be very helpful for you. See https://www.lmfsweb.afss.com/Website/ ). Whatever tool(s) you use, printing out the in-flight routing log - these come in a canned, soup-to-nuts format on a single small page - can be very helpful. You then take this log, work your way thru the flight with a chart in front of you, and annotate the log in ways that would be helpful. E.g. adding the CTAF & ASOS/ATIS freqs at both ends. Noting where or when in each leg the noteworthy ground reference point(s) might be. When you are done, you have not only prepared for the flight but you are taking that preparation with you in hard copy. And to be sure, if you don't have a kneeboard you might want to make or get one. (It doesn't have to be fancy. It does have to stay in one place on your lap and have a clip of some kind to secure the log and/or chart). You will notice that even these simple suggestions illustrate how a c/c flight differs from what you've experienced to date).

In my opinion, you need to have a discussion with your CFI, and you have a right to be satisfied with the decision to do yet another c/c flight before soloing.

Hello Jack, sorry I did not finish answering the questions you asked. Here are my responses.

1. It does felt a little bit unusual for my CFI to do cross country training and planning before solo, but I guess that is just his teaching style.

2. My CFI is funny, easy getting along with, but is an older fellow. Like I said before, he is not the CFI who would take advantage of me for my money or hours, and I still think he is the right instructor for me. Please don't think of him as a bad CFI, because I am not implying that. I just had a bad day simply. It will pass and I will get over this situation. He did ask me if this was my first cross country and it was not my first one. I had another cross country with another CFI a few years ago. My current CFI first went over ground school with me for the cross country planning the day before we took off for Lancaster Airport and back so he did teach me a little bit of it. Like I said before, we had originally planned to fly a cross country to 2 points (Doylestown and Central Jersey Regional) and back, but we only had time to fly to Doylestown and back yesterday because he told me to arrive later because of adverse weather conditions in the morning and he had another student pilot after me. He said we will try to fly the cross country as originally planned next weekend if conditions allow.

3. I plan for my cross country flight by doing what he taught me. I draw lines on my sectional chart, determine distance, course heading, alternate airports for each leg, altitude, etc. Then I get the weather information by using a variety of sources from Weather Channel's website, NOAA's website, aviationweather.gov, and more recently DUATS. I used to call Lockheed Martin Flight Services for a briefing in the past until recently when I started using DUATS. I used the weather information to calculate ground speed, ETA, wind correction, and fuel the day before the flight to complete my flight planning.

[Jack Tyler]

It's good to see you sampling many different on-line resources for flight prep as that's how we each decide what works best for us. Since you have begun doing flights out of the area, it's probably a good idea to zero in on the few that work best for you and then leverage them so your prep time is best used.

" I used the weather information to calculate ground speed, ETA, wind correction, and fuel the day before the flight to complete my flight planning."

Since you use DUATS now, you should let it do the above info for you. Go to DUATS & log in, select Flight Planning, then Flight Planner. (If you haven't already created an a/c profile for your training a/c, you should do that first). Create a flight plan (e.g. for your next c/c flight) and then let it give you all the above info (plus more) by printing out the route you planned. Then take a few moments to examine how the log is organized. This is a more accurate, certainly quicker and much easier method to prepare the details of a given flight...but of course you have to make that log sheet 'yours' by first recognizing how the info is organized and then using it in the a/c. You can annotate the few things it lacks, as I mentioned above (various freqs you'll need e.g.), right on the routing sheet. Trim it down to fit on your kneeboard and that part is done.

As you know, one purpose of training is to develop good habits which serve you well in the future, not just for flight training. My purpose in suggesting the above method is that you won't want flight planning to be a laborious, time consuming activity before each and every flight - especially if e.g. the weather breaks unexpectedly or you get a call from a friend and you need to prep for the flight as efficiently as you can. Learn to use either DUATS or some other flight planning tool now and it will become comfortable for you throughout your training and thereafter.

Glad to hear you have confidence in your flight instructor. STILL...I see no reconciliation in your comments between your goal of soloing before college begins and his training sequence. At the least, I think you two still need to validate that you are on the same page, and that both you and he think these c/c flights best contribute to your solo goal.

And yes, that was a good suggestion made earlier: Relax and try to enjoy the moment. After all, there should be some fun wrapped inside the productive training. Good luck on the next flight!

[N918KT]

It's good to see you sampling many different on-line resources for flight prep as that's how we each decide what works best for us. Since you have begun doing flights out of the area, it's probably a good idea to zero in on the few that work best for you and then leverage them so your prep time is best used.

" I used the weather information to calculate ground speed, ETA, wind correction, and fuel the day before the flight to complete my flight planning."

Since you use DUATS now, you should let it do the above info for you. Go to DUATS & log in, select Flight Planning, then Flight Planner. (If you haven't already created an a/c profile for your training a/c, you should do that first). Create a flight plan (e.g. for your next c/c flight) and then let it give you all the above info (plus more) by printing out the route you planned. Then take a few moments to examine how the log is organized. This is a more accurate, certainly quicker and much easier method to prepare the details of a given flight...but of course you have to make that log sheet 'yours' by first recognizing how the info is organized and then using it in the a/c. You can annotate the few things it lacks, as I mentioned above (various freqs you'll need e.g.), right on the routing sheet. Trim it down to fit on your kneeboard and that part is done.

As you know, one purpose of training is to develop good habits which serve you well in the future, not just for flight training. My purpose in suggesting the above method is that you won't want flight planning to be a laborious, time consuming activity before each and every flight - especially if e.g. the weather breaks unexpectedly or you get a call from a friend and you need to prep for the flight as efficiently as you can. Learn to use either DUATS or some other flight planning tool now and it will become comfortable for you throughout your training and thereafter.

Glad to hear you have confidence in your flight instructor. STILL...I see no reconciliation in your comments between your goal of soloing before college begins and his training sequence. At the least, I think you two still need to validate that you are on the same page, and that both you and he think these c/c flights best contribute to your solo goal.

And yes, that was a good suggestion made earlier: Relax and try to enjoy the moment. After all, there should be some fun wrapped inside the productive training. Good luck on the next flight!

Thanks for the suggestion Jack on the DUATS flight planner! I just created an aircraft profile and experimenting with the program. But just to be sure, I do not want to accidentally file any flight plan into the system and make it active, because I'm not going flying on my next cross country until hopefully next weekend. Does using the flight planner automatically files a flight plan, because I do not want it to become active. Also, does the DUATS flight planner have a map of some sort to plot the routes out on the computer, just almost like the way how Skyvector works? I cannot seem to find it. Does it also automatically makes a navigation log online, just like the one you see with the paper navigation log?

[Merlinspop]

Even if you do accidentally file a plan, the system will dump it after it expires. To avoid having an accidentally filed plan overlapping with another student's plan (not terribly likely in the first place), just use 3am departure times while you're playing with it.