ppl training question

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ka7eej
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Re: ppl training question

Post by ka7eej »

3 Dreaming

I'm not sure why you highlighted my previous post and added the comment " 61.23 says you need a third class medical to be a student pilot. You can only use you drivers license in place of a medical if you are seeking a sport pilot rating in a light sport aircraft."

I don't beleive that you have to "DECLARE" what type of rating you are seeking..If you get a SPORT PILOT student pilot certificate (free by the way if at a FSDO and other locations) then your on your way.. How much does a 3rd class medical cost to get a student pilot certificate??
Just to be clear.....

Here is the FAR with the correct sections, others deleted for space..

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate:

(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a U.S. driver's license when—

(i) Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;
[/b].

Once again this is the SPORTPILOTTALK forum.. This is the section that talks about SPORT PILOTS... I am a sport pilot and the things I talk about pertain to SPORT PILOTS.. White I realize that the original poster said he was going after a PPL, my previous post was asking the question that has not been answered as of yet. "What airplane are you going to SOLO IN???" If NOT in a Light Sport Plane you are correct.. If it is a Light sport plane he has options. Some of us are interested in SPORT PILOTS and are trying to give the original poster some options in getting to SOLO and a certificate to fly..

And Fly Safe!!
Brian
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Dangeruss
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Re: ppl training question

Post by Dangeruss »

I am training in an Allegro. Like drseti said, The only draw back to first completing my SPL is the additional costs of the written and practical test, and unfortunately I have to decide which written to take prior to flying solo due to the policies of my flight school. I am back on the fence over which license to puruse due to the headaches involved in obtaining my medical. The Pilots of America website has been incredibly enlightening.

I understand this is a sport pilot forum, thank you for all the responses and info.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by jnmeade »

Just a reminder that the CFI used must be a Part 61 Subpart H CFI if the training is to be credited to PPL and above. A Subpart K CFI training is only applicable to the SP certificate. Therefore, double check that your CFI is a "regular" CFI and not a "SP" CFI. The medical is not required so long as the CFI can be PIC, which means no simulated instrument or night, for example. If you want hood and night training, then the Subpart H CFI must have a valid medical.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by drseti »

Dangeruss wrote: unfortunately I have to decide which written to take prior to flying solo due to the policies of my flight school.
Of course, any flight school is free to set its own policies, as long as they don't run afoul of the FARs. So, they are within their rights here. I just happen to feel this is a very bad policy.

The alphabet soup organizations are always decrying the pitiful completion rate for student pilots. We should (we are told) all be doing our part to improve this. Requiring the knowledge test to be passed before first solo is a step in the wrong direction, IMHO.

Consider that the first solo is a rite of passage, a major milestone that most students find motivating. Completing it is a major accomplishment to be celebrated by the whole flight school. We should make a big deal about that. Now, for many students, the FAA written is a major hurdle. Why put a roadblock in front of a major victory? If the student solos first, and then takes a break from flying to prepare for and pass the written, the student will be on a high from the solo, in a positive attitude, and thus highly motivated to succeed with the written, so he or she can get back to flying,

Some schools go even further in the wrong direction, by requiring students to "prove their worth" by passing the written before they even start flying. No wonder so many student pilots get discouraged and quit!

Dangeruss, please feel free to share my comments with your flight school's manager, owner, or chief instructor. Have him or her contact me ([email protected]) if a dialog is desired.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by 3Dreaming »

ka7eej wrote:3 Dreaming

I'm not sure why you highlighted my previous post and added the comment " 61.23 says you need a third class medical to be a student pilot. You can only use you drivers license in place of a medical if you are seeking a sport pilot rating in a light sport aircraft."

I don't beleive that you have to "DECLARE" what type of rating you are seeking..If you get a SPORT PILOT student pilot certificate (free by the way if at a FSDO and other locations) then your on your way.. How much does a 3rd class medical cost to get a student pilot certificate??
Just to be clear.....

Here is the FAR with the correct sections, others deleted for space..

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate:

(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a U.S. driver's license when—

(i) Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;
[/b].

Once again this is the SPORTPILOTTALK forum.. This is the section that talks about SPORT PILOTS... I am a sport pilot and the things I talk about pertain to SPORT PILOTS.. White I realize that the original poster said he was going after a PPL, my previous post was asking the question that has not been answered as of yet. "What airplane are you going to SOLO IN???" If NOT in a Light Sport Plane you are correct.. If it is a Light sport plane he has options. Some of us are interested in SPORT PILOTS and are trying to give the original poster some options in getting to SOLO and a certificate to fly..

And Fly Safe!!
Brian
Brian, you left out the other part of 61.23 that is important.
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
Sure you can use the out in (c), (i) if you are in a light sport aircraft, but if your intent is to get your private then you must have the medical even in a light sport aircraft. If his school requires you take a knowledge test prior to solo and he take the private test I think that shows the intent.

Paul, I understand the wink in your post, but you do need to look at the intent of the student.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by drseti »

ka7eej wrote:O by the way this is the SPORTPILOTTALK.COM forum.... just saying
Brian, I think there is too much factionalism already in aviation. Private pilots sometimes think that SP are not "real pilots" and don't want SP questions on "their" forums. Let's not sink to that same level. Yes, of course this is sportpilottalk.com. We all know that. But Dangeruss' question is a fair one, and there's nothing wrong with us discussing the difficult "SP vs PP" decision.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
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drseti
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Re: ppl training question

Post by drseti »

3Dreaming wrote:Paul, I understand the wink in your post, but you do need to look at the intent of the student.
Tom, it seems to me that Dangeruss is still mulling over the PP vs SP decision. Thus, his intent is not yet clear. In cases like this, it is easier (and safer) to let your initial intent be SP, and change your mind later, than it is to go in the opposite direction. The pre-solo curriculum is (or should be) identical for both. The requirement of an FAA written before solo is an unfortunate complication unique to his particular flight school.

FWIW, I've had students start out going for the SP, solo without a medical, and then change their mind, get a medical, and complete as a PP. No problem at all doing this.

BTW, unless one declares his or her intent in writing, any FAR that depends upon "intent" is unenforceable.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
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AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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3Dreaming
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Re: ppl training question

Post by 3Dreaming »

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Paul, I understand the wink in your post, but you do need to look at the intent of the student.
Tom, it seems to me that Dangeruss is still mulling over the PP vs SP decision. Thus, his intent is not yet clear. In cases like this, it is easier (and safer) to let your initial intent be SP, and change your mind later, than it is to go in the opposite direction. The pre-solo curriculum is (or should be) identical for both. The requirement of an FAA written before solo is an unfortunate complication unique to his particular flight school.

FWIW, I've had students start out going for the SP, solo without a medical, and then change their mind, get a medical, and complete as a PP. No problem at all doing this.

BTW, unless one declares his or her intent in writing, any FAR that depends upon "intent" is unenforceable.
As soon as they change their mind they need a medical to fly solo with a student pilot certificate.
My original post was in regards to Brian's statement "You did not mention what Airplane you are training in or plan to use for your solo... If it is qualifies under Light Sport rules you do not need a medical first... Any one disagree.. Just because you are going for a PPL does not mean you cannot first solo in a Light Sport Airplane with out a medical.."
He ask if anyone disagreed and I do. The regulations also back it up.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by drseti »

I would add just one word to Brian's statement, which would then transform it into something with which I (and probably you, Tom) can agree:
Just because you are going for a PPL eventually does not mean you cannot first solo in a Light Sport Airplane without a medical.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Dangeruss
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Re: ppl training question

Post by Dangeruss »

drseti wrote: Of course, any flight school is free to set its own policies, as long as they don't run afoul of the FARs. So, they are within their rights here. I just happen to feel this is a very bad policy.

The alphabet soup organizations are always decrying the pitiful completion rate for student pilots. We should (we are told) all be doing our part to improve this. Requiring the knowledge test to be passed before first solo is a step in the wrong direction, IMHO.

Consider that the first solo is a rite of passage, a major milestone that most students find motivating. Completing it is a major accomplishment to be celebrated by the whole flight school. We should make a big deal about that. Now, for many students, the FAA written is a major hurdle. Why put a roadblock in front of a major victory? If the student solos first, and then takes a break from flying to prepare for and pass the written, the student will be on a high from the solo, in a positive attitude, and thus highly motivated to succeed with the written, so he or she can get back to flying,

Some schools go even further in the wrong direction, by requiring students to "prove their worth" by passing the written before they even start flying. No wonder so many student pilots get discouraged and quit!

Dangeruss, please feel free to share my comments with your flight school's manager, owner, or chief instructor. Have him or her contact me ([email protected]) if a dialog is desired.

Drseti, I completely agree with all of your points, and appreciate your offer of engaging in a dialogue with them over this policy. Student retention is a major issue throughout GA. My FBO is fairly flexible so I will talk to them and see if this is something that I can get changed. If they need more persuasion I will let you know because ideally I would like to continue training prior to being forced to decide on PPL or SPL and take that test to solo.
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rab23us
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Re: ppl training question

Post by rab23us »

Unless I have misread if you are currently training as an SP student then you do not require a medical and can solo and train as an SP, but if you are training to become a PPL then you need a third class medical as part of your student certificate from I have always been told.

Best bet is complete the SP the time counts towards PPL get your medical and continue training.
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jnmeade
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Re: ppl training question

Post by jnmeade »

I think people are misreading the term "seeking" to mean a declaration of specific intent when all it means in general FAA parlance is conducting activities that are consistent with a certification. There is a huge difference. In 40 years in aviation, I have never heard of the restrictive reading.
Here is my understanding of how it would apply to a student pilot with a drivers license but no medical.

1. The student can legally fly any airplane so long as there is a PIC. When the student is manipulating the controls he can log dual received if the PIC is a CFI. If the student gets a chance to fly a Beech D-18 under the hood with a CFI as PIC, he can log dual received in a tail wheel, multi-engine, complex, high performance airplane, in simulated instrument conditions and if he flies an approach can log it. He does not have to declare before the flight that he intends or seeks certification or endorsement in any of those categories or classes.
2. The student can fly solo in any LSA equivalent airplane if he has the training and endorsement. The student is not told in any FAA rules that he can only fly if, deep in his heart, he means to stop with SP operations. If the interpretations some have shared here are consistent, then the person who started out learning to fly with the intent of getting his ATP and being captain on American Airlines would have to get a first class medical to solo a Piper Cub.
3. Nothing says that a student legally flying an LSA cannot fly as many solo flights as he wishes. He is not told he can't fly 100 nm or 200 nm if he gets the sign-off. Those flights may well count as prerequisites to a commercial or instrument ticket.

The bottom line here is that the FAR has been misinterpreted and given a much more stringent definition that any of us old timers have ever heard of.

Re the OP. I'd try to find another school. If you can't, you might consider taking both written tests before you solo and then push them to let you fly solo as an SP student candidate even if you pursue a syllabus that would apply to both.
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Re: ppl training question

Post by 3Dreaming »

Jim, this is from 61.23
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
And
(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a U.S. driver's license when—
(i) Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;

If you are not going to follow what the regulations say, then at what point do you need to get your medical? You have to have it for your checkride, but do you need it for your second solo cross country? How about after that first hour of night training? What are you going to set as the limit if you don't follow what the regulation says?
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Re: ppl training question

Post by jnmeade »

3Dreaming wrote:Jim, this is from 61.23
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
And
(c) Operations requiring either a medical certificate or U.S. driver's license. (1) A person must hold and possess either a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a U.S. driver's license when—
(i) Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges in a light-sport aircraft other than a glider or balloon;

If you are not going to follow what the regulations say, then at what point do you need to get your medical? You have to have it for your checkride, but do you need it for your second solo cross country? How about after that first hour of night training? What are you going to set as the limit if you don't follow what the regulation says?
No one is saying a thing about not following the regulations. Where are you coming up with that?

If you are flying an LSA, you don't need a medical. If you are flying a C150 you do need a medical. That's the difference.

Tens of thousands of pilots got their private pilot training in a Piper Cub. It is LSA compliant. You can get your full private training in a piper club using sport pilot rules and then you need a medical before the checkride if you are going for your private.

All the private pilot night training is dual. You don't need any kind of medical at all, even a driver's license. The instrument training is dual - no medical needed.

Be sure you use a Subpart H CFI if you intend to apply this training to a private certificate.

If you are flying an LSA without a medical, you are defacto exercising the privileges of a student sport pilot.
If you are flying a non-LSA with a medical, you are defacto exercising the privileges of a student recreational or higher pilot.

You guys have to quite reading a restrictive interpretation that the FAA does not mean into the word "seeking".
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Re: ppl training question

Post by 3Dreaming »

Jim, I had a long reply typed out, but decided to go another way because I have already shown the regulations to back up my point.
You say "If you are flying an LSA, you don't need a medical.". What about at night? Doesn't your CT have the night lighting package installed? The airplane can fly at night, but the pilot without a medical can not. In this case even though it is a LSA you have to have a medical. The FAA says to exercise the privileges of a student pilot certificate you need at least a third class medical. Just like to exercise the night flying privileges of a private pilot certificate. The one exception they give to the third class medical for a student pilot flying an airplane is if you are seeking Sport Pilot Privileges, and only if you are flying a Light Sport airplane. We have to remember these regs were written long before the sport pilot stuff came in to being, and were then modified to meet the changing needs. This fix did take care of the sport pilot student, but never gave a private pilot student the ability to fly a light sport aircraft without a medical.
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