ppl training question

[3Dreaming]

Jim, my replies are in blue.

I think people are misreading the term "seeking" to mean a declaration of specific intent when all it means in general FAA parlance is conducting activities that are consistent with a certification. There is a huge difference. In 40 years in aviation, I have never heard of the restrictive reading.
Here is my understanding of how it would apply to a student pilot with a drivers license but no medical.

1. The student can legally fly any airplane so long as there is a PIC. When the student is manipulating the controls he can log dual received if the PIC is a CFI. If the student gets a chance to fly a Beech D-18 under the hood with a CFI as PIC, he can log dual received in a tail wheel, multi-engine, complex, high performance airplane, in simulated instrument conditions and if he flies an approach can log it. He does not have to declare before the flight that he intends or seeks certification or endorsement in any of those categories or classes.
I have no problem with anything you said in 1.

2. The student can fly solo in any LSA equivalent airplane if he has the training and endorsement. they must also hold a third class medical per 61.23, (a), (3), (iii). The student is not told in any FAA rules that he can only fly if, deep in his heart, he means to stop with SP operations.That is exactly what is said in 61.23, (c), (i). If the interpretations some have shared here are consistent, then the person who started out learning to fly with the intent of getting his ATP and being captain on American Airlines would have to get a first class medical to solo a Piper Cub. That would not be the case, because first he must exercise the privileges of a student pilot certificate for which a third class medical is required.

3. Nothing says that a student legally flying an LSA cannot fly as many solo flights as he wishes. He is not told he can't fly 100 nm or 200 nm if he gets the sign-off. Those flights may well count as prerequisites to a commercial or instrument ticket.
Nothing wrong here as long as the rules are followed.

The bottom line here is that the FAR has been misinterpreted and given a much more stringent definition that any of us old timers have ever heard of.
I'm just reading what the words say, and not what I want them to say. I don't think that means I am misinterpreting anything. As for old timeres, before sport pilot you needed a medical to exercise the privileges of a student pilot certificate, so nothing has really changed.

Re the OP. I'd try to find another school. If you can't, you might consider taking both written tests before you solo and then push them to let you fly solo as an SP student candidate even if you pursue a syllabus that would apply to both.

[garbageman]

Guys

You do not need a medical, nor a student pilot cert to take training. In any class of aircraft. You need them to solo. A student pilot cert and drivers lic to solo in an LSA; a student pilot cert and at least a 3rd class medical to solo in any aircraft that is not certificated as a lsa.

Paul -please jump in and end this!

David

[3Dreaming]

Guys

You do not need a medical, nor a student pilot cert to take training. In any class of aircraft. You need them to solo. A student pilot cert and drivers lic to solo in an LSA; a student pilot cert and at least a 3rd class medical to solo in any aircraft that is not certificated as a lsa.

Paul -please jump in and end this!

David

I probably shouldn't reply, but the teacher in me is making me do it. "You do not need a medical, nor a student pilot cert to take training. In any class of aircraft. You need them to solo." I agree with this 100%.

"A student pilot cert and drivers lic to solo in an LSA." Only if you are seeking a sport pilot privileges. This is from 61.23, (c), (i).

"a student pilot cert and at least a 3rd class medical to solo in any aircraft that is not certificated as a lsa" A 3rd class medical is required for a student pilot to exercise their privileges regardless of what type aircraft you are flying per 61.23, (a), (3), (iii). Also for a sport pilot student the aircraft doesn't need to be certified as a LSA, but only meet the requirements of a LSA. A J3 Cub is not certified as a LSA, but can be flown by a sport pilot student with a medical and student pilot certificate.

[CharlieTango]

Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges

Notice it does not say seeking sport pilot certificate but it does say sport pilot privileges.

There is more than one path to sport pilot privileges. The sport pilot certificate along with a drivers license or 3rd class medical or higher will get you there. A PPL and a drivers licences will get you there as well.

If my path to sport pilot privileges is via a PPL and a drivers license how would I be violating the above language?

[3Dreaming]

Exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking sport pilot privileges

Notice it does not say seeking sport pilot certificate but it does say sport pilot privileges.

There is more than one path to sport pilot privileges. The sport pilot certificate along with a drivers license or 3rd class medical or higher will get you there. A PPL and a drivers licences will get you there as well.

If my path to sport pilot privileges is via a PPL and a drivers license how would I be violating the above language?

I think in the path you describe you are seeking private pilot privileges, that is what you are going to be tested for. While wishing to exercise sport pilot privileges. In any case you will need at least a 3rd class medical for the checkride per 61.23(a)(3)(vi) even if it is taken in a LSA. If in fact you were seeking private pilot privileges you would need the medical for your solo flight.

[jnmeade]

If you fly dual at night you need no medical. This has been said before. If you fly solo at night, you need a medical and I can assure you that no CFI that I know of will sign you off as a student for solo night flight.

You are simply misreading the reg and I am bored with this. Fly anyway you want, but the point of these discussions is that others read them and if they believe what you say they will have the wrong idea.

Since you don't believe what experienced CFIs on this forum tell you, go over to Pilots of America and post your question. See what some of the pilot's lounge lawyers over there say about it.

One of the maddening things about the LSA and SP crowd is they think any GA perspective is misguided, wrong, anachronistic and not to be trusted. I hate to tell them this, but the FAA and CAA before it have been around a lot longer than the SP certificate.

[CharlieTango]

I think in the path you describe you are seeking private pilot privileges, that is what you are going to be tested for. While wishing to exercise sport pilot privileges. In any case you will need at least a 3rd class medical for the checkride per 61.23(a)(3)(vi) even if it is taken in a LSA. If in fact you were seeking private pilot privileges you would need the medical for your solo flight.

I will be tested for the certificate that I apply for, I will not be tested for lower level privileges that I seek.

What you think I am seeking is irrelevant. Seek speaks to objective and my objective could well be sport pilot privileges [while holding a higher level certificate] and only I can speak to what I seek, or my objective.

The fact that I need a medical for a PPL checkride is irrelevant as well.

'Seeking privileges' is not the same as 'Seeking a certificate', you are constraining the rule beyond what it says.

[3Dreaming]

If you fly dual at night you need no medical. This has been said before. If you fly solo at night, you need a medical and I can assure you that no CFI that I know of will sign you off as a student for solo night flight.

You are simply misreading the reg and I am bored with this. Fly anyway you want, but the point of these discussions is that others read them and if they believe what you say they will have the wrong idea.

Since you don't believe what experienced CFIs on this forum tell you, go over to Pilots of America and post your question. See what some of the pilot's lounge lawyers over there say about it.

One of the maddening things about the LSA and SP crowd is they think any GA perspective is misguided, wrong, anachronistic and not to be trusted. I hate to tell them this, but the FAA and CAA before it have been around a lot longer than the SP certificate.

Jim, my comment about flying at night was dirrected towards blanket your statement, "If you are flying an LSA, you don't need a medical." I was just trying to make a point. The type of aircraft you are flying nothing to do with what kind of medical you need. This is where everybody is having a problem. It is the privileges you are exercising that dictates what medical you need, and not the aircraft you are flying. With the proper equipment you can fly a LSA at night, over 10,000 feet, VFR on top, or while filing IFR (no IMC). You are exercising private pilot privileges, and this is why you need a medical. 61.23 deals with medicals, and list which privileges need which medical. When you get to what is allowed with a drivers license you can only exercise sport pilot based privileges, and these privileges limit you to a LSA eligible aircraft. I think this is why people think that if you are flying an LSA you don't need a medical, but it is the privileges you are exercising that dictates the medical.

I always thought I was one of the experienced CFIs on the forum. I feel left out now. Maybe I will go back to just flying GA aircraft.

[drseti]

I always thought I was one of the experienced CFIs on the forum. I feel left out now. Maybe I will go back to just flying GA aircraft.

You're still one lf us, Tom, and will remain so (unless you decide to pull a Yorktown).

[jnmeade]

It is the privileges you are exercising that dictates what medical you need, and not the aircraft you are flying. With the proper equipment you can fly a LSA at night, over 10,000 feet, VFR on top, or while filing IFR (no IMC). You are exercising private pilot privileges, and this is why you need a medical. 61.23 deals with medicals, and list which privileges need which medical. When you get to what is allowed with a drivers license you can only exercise sport pilot based privileges, and these privileges limit you to a LSA eligible aircraft. I think this is why people think that if you are flying an LSA you don't need a medical, but it is the privileges you are exercising that dictates the medical.

I always thought I was one of the experienced CFIs on the forum. I feel left out now. Maybe I will go back to just flying GA aircraft.

So far, as far as I know, you are exactly right in the above, so long as it's clear that some privileges can only be legally exercised in certain categories and classes of airplanes, in this case we're talking about training in ASEL.

I have personal knowledge of a FD CTLS in KCID that is IFR certified by the FAA, so you can fly in IMC in it if you meet the prerequisites.

The discussion has been about the concept of "seeking" and whether you need to have a medical to train to be a private pilot. The answer is absolutely no, you do not need a medical to train to be a private pilot so long as you (1) hold a valid driver's license and (2) are flying an LSA compliant airplane until the point when you are about to take the private pilot checkride. Then you need a class 3 medical.

If this is what you are saying, we are in violent agreement.

[3Dreaming]

I think in the path you describe you are seeking private pilot privileges, that is what you are going to be tested for. While wishing to exercise sport pilot privileges. In any case you will need at least a 3rd class medical for the checkride per 61.23(a)(3)(vi) even if it is taken in a LSA. If in fact you were seeking private pilot privileges you would need the medical for your solo flight.

I will be tested for the certificate that I apply for, I will not be tested for lower level privileges that I seek.

What you think I am seeking is irrelevant. Seek speaks to objective and my objective could well be sport pilot privileges [while holding a higher level certificate] and only I can speak to what I seek, or my objective.

The fact that I need a medical for a PPL checkride is irrelevant as well.

'Seeking privileges' is not the same as 'Seeking a certificate', you are constraining the rule beyond what it says.

[3Dreaming]

It is the privileges you are exercising that dictates what medical you need, and not the aircraft you are flying. With the proper equipment you can fly a LSA at night, over 10,000 feet, VFR on top, or while filing IFR (no IMC). You are exercising private pilot privileges, and this is why you need a medical. 61.23 deals with medicals, and list which privileges need which medical. When you get to what is allowed with a drivers license you can only exercise sport pilot based privileges, and these privileges limit you to a LSA eligible aircraft. I think this is why people think that if you are flying an LSA you don't need a medical, but it is the privileges you are exercising that dictates the medical.

I always thought I was one of the experienced CFIs on the forum. I feel left out now. Maybe I will go back to just flying GA aircraft.

So far, as far as I know, you are exactly right in the above, so long as it's clear that some privileges can only be legally exercised in certain categories and classes of airplanes, in this case we're talking about training in ASEL.

I have personal knowledge of a FD CTLS in KCID that is IFR certified by the FAA, so you can fly in IMC in it if you meet the prerequisites.

The discussion has been about the concept of "seeking" and whether you need to have a medical to train to be a private pilot. The answer is absolutely no, you do not need a medical to train to be a private pilot so long as you (1) hold a valid driver's license and (2) are flying an LSA compliant airplane until the point when you are about to take the private pilot checkride. Then you need a class 3 medical.

If this is what you are saying, we are in violent agreement.

Certified IFR means it can legally work in the system, but the AOI still prohibits flight in IMC. 91.327 says you must follow the AOI.

We are still not eye to eye on the last statement. The regulations say that you must have a 3rd class medical if you are exercising the privileges of a studeny pilot certificate. Note it doesn't say anything about what kind of airplane you are flying. It then goes on to say that you may exercise the privileges of a student pilot certificate with a drivers license if you are seeking sport pilot privileges (not private pilot privileges) while flying a LSA. If you are seeking private pilot privileges you must have at least a 3rd class medical. Please take the time to read 61.23 and see what the words are.

Now there is a path within the rules to get to the private pilot checkride with out a medical. You have to get your sport pilot first, then you can finish all the other requirements while flying as a sport pilot.

[drseti]

Now there is a path within the rules to get to the private pilot checkride with out a medical. You have to get your sport pilot first, then you can finish all the other requirements while flying as a sport pilot.

Tom, just to make sure we are absolutely clear here:

(1) That path will take you up to, not through, the PPL checkride. You must have already passed the medical exam before you will be allowed to take the PPL checkride. That is, a Sport Popot rating is not sufficient to take a PPL checkride in an LSA. We have been saying that the medical certificate defines what privileges you can exercise, but in this case it gets more complicated than that. You can't simply argue that you're taking a PPL checkride while exercising SP privileges.

(2) When a licensed SP takes PPL training, somebody in the plane (in this case, the CFI) needs a medical during night dual instruction.

(3) the usual caveat applies, that it's risky to apply for a medical certificate. A licensed SP wanting to continue on for the private, if then denied a medical, loses both the PPL opportunity and his or her SP privileges.

[3Dreaming]

Now there is a path within the rules to get to the private pilot checkride with out a medical. You have to get your sport pilot first, then you can finish all the other requirements while flying as a sport pilot.

Tom, just to make sure we are absolutely clear here:

(1) That path will take you up to, not through, the PPL checkride. You must have already passed the medical exam before you will be allowed to take the PPL checkride. That is, a Sport Popot rating is not sufficient to take a PPL checkride in an LSA. We have been saying that the medical certificate defines what privileges you can exercise, but in this case it gets more complicated than that. You can't simply argue that you're taking a PPL checkride while exercising SP privileges.

(2) When a licensed SP takes PPL training, somebody in the plane (in this case, the CFI) needs a medical during night dual instruction.

(3) the usual caveat applies, that it's risky to apply for a medical certificate. A licensed SP wanting to continue on for the private, if then denied a medical, loses both the PPL opportunity and his or her SP privileges.

Yes this is correct. That is why I said to the checkride and not past. 61.23(a),(3),(vi) says you need a 3rd class medical to take a private pilot checkride.

[designrs]

You do not need a medical, nor a student pilot cert to take training. In any class of aircraft. You need them to solo.

I really like the logic of not letting the "non-medical" ticket of LSA limit your flying options!!
1) Get your Sport Pilot License and fly solo in the most capable LSA aircraft for your mission. Have your "do my own thing" solo days in the LSA.
2) Check out different mission LSA... amphib, tail dragger, etc.

** I recently flew a "longer" dual cross-country in a Carbon Cub SS... plenty of power, amazing climb rate, and quite a challenge to consider training in being a tail dragger and all, not to mention all of the back woods softfield landing opportunities and challenges! ... and it is a LSA.

3) Go on to train and fly whatever aircraft you want with an appropriately rated CFI that can train you well. Train your butt off to the pilot in command standard and become truly competent in whatever aircraft you want to fly. Train for night and IMC if that is what you want. You can even do practice advanced checkrides with your CFI.
4) You can always find a CFI to go along and be legal.
5) It would be nice to fly high-performance aircraft (which you can rent or own) and have the CFI come back and say, "Oh, as usual he just took me for a ride. It's nice to relax sometimes." Plus it's good to have the company and help with the chores.
6) If you are really that good and competent you can always find someone to sit in the right seat to fill the legal requirements.

Be legal. Be safe. Most importantly be the pilot that you want to be!
Personal commitment and $$$ are more of a factor than the FAA medical regulation.