New Skycatcher & SP Training now in Jax, FL

[Jack Tyler]

I thought there might be some board members and lurkers who would want to hear that Atlantic Aviation (KHEG) is picking up its new Skycatcher in Wichita on Halloween morning. As they do with PPL training, they are offering a guaranteed, fixed price for SP training that meets the minimum hour requirement (for an initial period, the price is $3,489; after that, $4100) and that includes all the instructional materials, Cessna's on-line student training account, and the written exam fee. They also plan to rent the Skycatcher for $99, wet. When they deliver PPL training, they even offer a fixed price that guarantees passing the check ride. This is made feasible by how integral the use of their Redbird full-motion simulator to the program...and in fact, a PPL student has unlimited use of the sim while training.

For those of you not familiar with the experimental training being developed by Redbird, they are having some amazing results when starting with the premise that a full-motion sim is the centerpoint of the flight training, and then adjusting the training sequence and in-flight training accordingly. They routinely beat the 40 hr. minimum requirement, meaning the student pilot is proficient and ready for the check ride and then must do flights just to finish building those minimum hours. Interestingly, there are two student pilots I've come to know thru the local EAA chapter here are have done exactly the same thing at Atlantic Aviation. They finished their flight training well ahead of the 40 hrs requirement.

http://www.atlanticaviationinc.com for anyone that needs/wants more info. (No business relationship on my part...but I do know the manager and have used him & the school for my IPC, so I know first-hand a little of what I speak).

[drseti]

Jack, this is good news, and sounds like a reasonable package at a fair price. That said, it is important to note that for a fixed price, they can only guarantee a fixed number of aircraft and instructional hours, along with training materials and the written testing fee. They cannot guarantee one can actually earn a license in those hours, at that cost. Nobody can.

Question: does the state of FL have sales tax on aircraft rental and instruction? If so, is that included in their price? (I had to add my state's 6% sales tax to my published prices, in order to be realistic.)

[Jack Tyler]

Paul, I don't know - but probably should - if a/c rental is taxable. I would assume so. As you would suspect, I did the IPC work in our Grumman. And fuel is taxed at the s/s pump so it wouldn't appear on any rental form. I don't think instructor fees are taxable, as that is a service.

"That said, it is important to note that for a fixed price, they can only guarantee a fixed number of aircraft and instructional hours, along with training materials and the written testing fee."

Not true. That's exactly what they guarantee with their PPL program. They offer a fixed cost, all inclusive program and - while they certainly can't guarantee someone will PASS a check ride - they guarantee that instructor time, sim time and add'l ground school time will available, as long as it is needed, until the student succeeds (or at some point, gives up and stops coming). The a/c hours, beyond those built into the PPL program and covered by the fixed cost, would be an additional expense as I understand it.

BTW I talked to two of their students yesterday and they mentioned that 8 of them were attending check-ride oral exam prep sessions multiple times each week, while they finished up the required hours to reach 40. No cost for those two fellows, as they paid a fixed price and 'whatever you need to succeed' program. So there's a thought for us all to digest: As much ground school and check ride prep training is offered as is needed. Follow-on conclusion: Those instructors will be highly motivated to challenge the students and make the prep time effective...'cause otherwise they will be back again tomorrow night. Another thought to ponder: A relatively unsuccessful flight training business, after the arrival of a new manager and some innovative approaches plus the investment in a sim, and the school has EIGHT students JUST in the final 'check ride' prep stage of training. And this is a school with only 2 172's to service all their PPL students. I wonder how many schools at small rural airports can say that?

[drseti]

The a/c hours, beyond those built into the PPL program and covered by the fixed cost, would be an additional expense as I understand it.

OK, that makes a little more sense. A fixed cost, all inclusive program implied to me that the student gets all the aircraft hours he or she needs, at no additional cost. Obviously, that would be a flawed business plan.

That said, I can still see some drawbacks with this program. The student is incentivized to take all the free ground instruction he or she can get, since it doesn't cost anything. The student who enjoys flying, but just wants more hand-holding, is similarly incentivized to delay the checkride as long as possible, since he or she wants to fly (thus would pay for the aircraft anyway), but gets the instructor along for free. And, the flip side of this somewhat tarnished coin is that the CFI, who would otherwise be giving away a lot of his or her time without compensation, has a strong incentive to sign the student off for the checkride as quickly as possible, whether ready or not.

I'll be very interested in seeing how this has worked out, a couple of years down the pike.

[drseti]

So there's a thought for us all to digest: As much ground school and check ride prep training is offered as is needed.

Yes, that's kind of what I do by flat-rating the instructor by the lesson, rather than by the hour. A lesson can take as long as the student needs, and can include as much ground time as the student wants, without the instructor's Hobbs meter running. (The plane's Hobbs, of course, still runs, during the flight segment of the lesson.) Of course, with my method, this unlimited instructor tutoring has to be tied to some sort of flight lesson, or at least to the instructor's flat fee that would have been charged for a flight lesson.

However, that means I need to hire instructors who don't have to live off an hourly wage. If, for example, the student wants a marathon 5- hour ground lesson, and as long as it doesn't interfere with the other students' schedules, he or she gets it for the flat $100 instructor fee (bringing the instructor's pay down to $20/hr, minus the 10% overhead the flight school retains for providing the advertising, scheduling, insurance, and facility).

Lots of room here for lots of different business models. I'm interested in learning what other schools are finding effective.

[Jack Tyler]

Paul, Atlantic Aviation has been doing this for almost three years now. Seems to work well, in part because it is the one place in Jacksonville where a prospective student can be assured, up front, how much it is likely to cost him/her to get a pilot's license. You have to remember: the school's (business') goals are not just to graduate licensed pilots, but to attract most of the prospective students into their front door in the first place. <s> When meeting with a prospective student (customer), the manager requires them to visit the other schools in the area, and he gives them a checklist of Q's for which they are told to get A's (how much will a PPL cost them? how many hours of ground school are provided? what is their exam and check-ride stats?) He gets the students involved in selling his own program to them.

That said, I think I have left you with this 'as much ground school as you need' approach means the student drives the program, whereas things are directed by the instructor. E.g. the instructor decides where the pre-check ride group needs add'l instruction, he determines the length of time needed to cover the material, and he refers the student back to the appropriate study materials on their own when gaps remain. And when the student has been signed off to solo (and is current, of course), an additional flight might be (in part or in whole) without the instructor - e.g. to practice crosswind landings. Another factor not to overlook is how this 'unlimited' assistance by the flight school actually motivates the student to finish up (or perhaps quit, if it just isn't happening for them). The Redbird sim is a sunk cost, so referring the student to the sign-up sheet doesn't affect the school's cost...but it does represent an inconvenience to the student, who must work around the other reservations to get in the sim 'yet again'. 'Free' ground school may sound like great fun until, after work, it (and its learning requirements) are an add'l burden that must be added to one's day. Revisiting FAA regs or doing another hour of sim work or paying for yet another hour of a/c time isn't a reward for most students, just an incentive to finish up.

There's one other major influence with this approach that you might overlook because you are/have been a professional educator, you *chose* to open and run a flight school, so you aren't representative. This kind of fixed-price approach makes instructors accountable for getting results from their (sim and actual) flight training. They don't want to hand-hold the student indefinitely, they want the student in the air and moving down the curriculum in good order. The 'extra instruction' is out of their lives. This may sound like the normal orientation of an instructor...but for those who are only instructing to build hours, there's no such incentive. Case in point: a middle-aged, bright & motivated student pilot paid $8,000 to the 'professional' flight school over on the other side of Jax (for phase I of their PPL curriculum) and, after 50 hrs, hadn't yet been soloed by the two instructors he had been working with. That's egregiously unfair...but of course he didn't realize that. I encouraged him to move to Atlantic and it took a couple of hours before the instructor & Manager signed him off to solo (which as you know is always a big 'risk management' decision by the guy who has his a/c and his business' rep at stake). The way AA's program works, they 'have to' get him soloing.

To be sure, no biz model is perfect and this one will have its challenges...but it is quite successful and, for this area, very unique.

[Hambone]

I'm curious as to how much actual PPL/Sport Pilot training value there is to be gained by a simulator. Although simulation certainly has its benefits (especially in instrument and military training), I can't see it shaving many flying hours from a Sport Pilot/PPL program.

I suppose if the organization already has the simulator in place for more advanced training, making it available to PPL/Sport Pilot students can be useful, particularly for navigation and emergency training.

[Jack Tyler]

It's probably fair to state that a sim's utility to the PPL/SPL trainee will vary greatly, depending on whether the curriculum is redesigned to optimize the sim's value OR the sim is simply plugged into the existing curriculum. That latter approach is probably what most of us imagine when we hear about basic flight training + use of a sim. The former approach - starting with the sim as a fundamental tool and then redesigning the delivery of training - is where the benefits lie based on what I hear. Either way, sims usually result in less flight time and a sim hour is a fraction of the cost of a flight hour, so there's some financial benefit to the student. Also, remember that one mfgr. alone (Redbird) builds 18 different sim models and a sim's value is, inevitably, going to depend in part on its capabilities (and so, it's cost).

In Redbird's case, they didn't start by trying to build a cheaper or more capable sim. They started by trying to understand the best uses of a sim in the various GA curricula. Which, as it turns out, is not such a simple thing. I happened to have a chat with Redbird's founder at this month's AOPA Summit. Jerry Grigore is a very unassuming, soft-spoken guy with quite an apparent thirst for wanting to understand what works and why. I could only get other folks to talk about his innovative approach when designing and building Skyport FBO; Jerry was simply unwilling to toot his own horn. But the essence of this brand new FBO (cheapest 100LL in TX, BTW...and that's saying something) is that it's secondary purpose should be to expose as many different kinds of visitors to GA's many faces as it possibly can. So he designed in a very plush, quite large conference facility...and any business, from anywhere, flying in or driving in, is invited to use it for free, for as long as they want. They have a number of Redbird sims on site at Skyport, and if a company wants to do team building exercises using these demo Redbirds, Jerry provides the sims and their instructors at no charge. He recently donated the funds to the RAF for it to build a brand new Fire Hub just outside the FBO's front door, just another place for visitors of all stripes to gather after a meeting of after flying in, start a fire, and to sit around and marvel at the setting. All of these supplemental benefits and services were built into the FBO's facility for one basic purpose. Jerry's view is that the more non-pilots are exposed to aviation, the more an interest in and appreciation for aviation will develop. Skyport is quite a story (as is Redbird). Try to visit it some time.

About Ham's Question: Here is a bit of recent research that is one measure of sim utility in PPL training, as recently posted on Redbird's website:
"San Marcos, TX (October 22, 2012) – After one year of turning students into Private Pilots for a flat fee of $9500, Redbird Flight Simulation’s Skyport reports their experiment in simulator-based training is working. At its Migration Flight Training Conference this week, Redbird announced the school has graduated 20 Private Pilots, as well as completed 18 instrument ratings, one multi-engine rating and one instrument instructor certificate. It took an average of 38 flight hours to complete the private pilot rating, which is less than two-thirds the national average.

“We found that we needed to completely rethink the learner, the materials and delivery methods,” says Roger Sharp, Director of Flight Operations for the Skyport. Sharp says the Skyport and Redbird have 46 products that have come out of this process so far, with more on the way. “We identify better methods every week,” Sharp says of the simulator."

There's more at http://www.redbirdflightsimulations.com/category/news/

[designrs]

Reaching out with the link below about additional Sport Pilot training and rental options in Jacksonville, Florida, at Craig Airport (KCRG).

http://www.holladayaviation.com/sport-pilot/

[HAPPYDAN]

"I thought there might be some board members and lurkers who would want to hear that Atlantic Aviation (KHEG) is picking up its new Skycatcher in Wichita on Halloween morning."

Really? Cessna is releasing a "new" Skycatcher? That would be good news all by itself. That aside, many things you have written inspire me look into that flight school as a possible route to (finally) finish up my training and get that SPC. I've been at it with a local operation for over a year, and I still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. Between the weather and VA-supported students, flying time is hard to get. I have heard some really good things about that Redbird crosswind trainer. Apparently, it's a very unforgiving simulator. Get it right or it can get ugly - but nobody gets hurt! If they bring one to the Bremerton Fly-in, I'll give it a try. Thanks for posting this.

[drseti]

Richard,
You might want to ask your colleagues at Craig to correct this statement on their website, under Sport Pilot training:

No instrument flight training required (although we highly recommend it)

Since the Sport Cruiser has a Vh grater than 87 knots, training on flight solely by reference to instruments absolutely is required prior to solo XC.

[designrs]

The site is not dead. This is an older thread that I revived with some current information.

[drseti]

Not dead; this is summer. Everybody is out flying instead of posting (as it should be).

[HAPPYDAN]

"I thought there might be some board members and lurkers who would want to hear that Atlantic Aviation (KHEG) is picking up its new Skycatcher in Wichita on Halloween morning."

Really? Cessna is releasing a "new" Skycatcher? That would be good news all by itself. That aside, many things you have written inspire me look into that flight school as a possible route to (finally) finish up my training and get that SPC. I've been at it with a local operation for over a year, and I still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. Between the weather and VA-supported students, flying time is hard to get. I have heard some really good things about that Redbird crosswind trainer. Apparently, it's a very unforgiving simulator. Get it right or it can get ugly - but nobody gets hurt! If they bring one to the Bremerton Fly-in, I'll give it a try. Thanks for posting this.

That post is from 2012. I know this site has been dead for a while, but not back to 2012.

Note to self: Check the date on the post, dummy. Back to square #1.

[designrs]

Since the Sport Cruiser has a Vh grater than 87 knots, training on flight solely by reference to instruments absolutely is required prior to solo XC.

Per Dr. Paul, the FAR is 61.93 (e)12
It's rather obscure, as it is not placed in the main chapter section outlining Sport Pilot requirements.

Thanks Paul!