Having the CFI fly up to my home airport for training

[N918KT]

I have now made a decision to do flight training at Royal Karina Air Service. A month ago, the flight school president told me that we can send an instructor from Trenton Airport and fly up to the closest airport to my home for training. While my step father wants to take that option instead of driving 50 miles to Trenton, I do have some disagreements.

1. What happens if I do my solo flying? Would the instructor still fly up to my home airport so I can use the LSA? Would I even have to pay the CFI still for solo work?

2. How would I pay for the lessons and flight training materials if there is no cash register for the CFI to use nearby? Would the CFI bring its own portable register? (Something like the flight attendants use when you buy food and drinks on the airliner, if it costs money?)

3. What happens to me after I get my Sport Pilot License? I would have no LSA to rent since the LSA is based at Trenton Airport. Would I have to drive down to Trenton to fly their LSA?

Actually I kind of support my step father's decision but I do have some concerns myself.

[comperini]

I have now made a decision to do flight training at Royal Karina Air Service. A month ago, the flight school president told me that we can send an instructor from Trenton Airport and fly up to the closest airport to my home for training. While my step father wants to take that option instead of driving 50 miles to Trenton, I do have some disagreements.

At who's expense? Will you be paying for the instructor's travel time? Will you be paying the extra 1 hour per trip on their LSA for him to come to you? (I can't imagine them doing that for free). And yes, your fears about having to pay for the instructor while he sits there letting you solo are also valid.

All these questions need to be answered before you continue. 50 miles isn't a long drive. Its going to be much cheaper for you to go to them, isn't it?

[3Dreaming]

You could likely hire a limo to take you there and wait cheaper than having the instructor fly the airplane to you.

[bshort]

Well.....Sounds like they would have you pre-pay for lessons and then deduct for the time used. You will most likely be paying the Hobbs and instructor time as soon as he leaves Trenton until he returns. So, round up to an extra hour of pay for not driving 50 miles. I think you could pay a cab cheaper than 1hr of instructor, Hobbs, and fuel.

When you solo....yeah. You really need to find a way to get to Trenton.

[drseti]

Would I even have to pay the CFI still for solo work?

Actually, as a student sport pilot, all your solo work is "supervised solo" anyway. That means an instructor has to be at the airport to brief you prior to each solo flight, monitor the situation, stand by while you're flying, and debrief you afterward. And an instructor will generally get paid for this supervision, though probably at a discounted rate.

How would I pay for the lessons and flight training materials

Most flight schools have a mechanism whereby you put funds on account, and draw against them (usually with about a 10% block discount). And many accept credit cards, checks, or (my personal preference) PayPal.

What happens to me after I get my Sport Pilot License? I would have no LSA to rent

The lack of an available rental fleet is one of the major challenges facing the LSA/Sport Pilot movement. Only time (or maybe moving closer to an airport that has a rental fleet) can alleviate that.

[3Dreaming]

[quote="drseti"]Actually, as a student sport pilot, all your solo work is "supervised solo" anyway. That means an instructor has to be at the airport to brief you prior to each solo flight, monitor the situation, stand by while you're flying, and debrief you afterward. And an instructor will generally get paid for this supervision, though probably at a discounted rate.quote]

Paul, I understand that this may be your policy, but where did you come up with this?

[zdc]

Not from any regulation I know of. The prudent instructor would place solo restrictions in the students logbook [ceiling, vis, max cross wind component, distance etc] but the instructor doesn't have to be physicaly present for each solo.

[comperini]

Not from any regulation I know of.

The "instructor has to be involved" regulation I am aware of, is 14 CFR 61.61.93(c)(2)(ii), which is the cross country flight rule, talking about how the instructor must have approved the flight planning, etc.

[zdc]

Not from any regulation I know of.

The "instructor has to be involved" regulation I am aware of, is 14 CFR 61.61.93(c)(2)(ii), which is the cross country flight rule, talking about how the instructor must have approved the flight planning, etc.

Yes, an instructor has to review flight planning for cross country, but isn't required to be at the airport for the students takeoff and return landing. When an instructor gives an endorsement for solo flight thats exactly what it means.There is nothing wrong with students, on their own, after receiving an edorsement for solo flight [usualy with restrictions], to practice touch n go's and manuevers in the designated practice areas without the instructor present before or after the flights.

[zdc]

[quote="drseti"][quote="N918KT"]Actually, as a student sport pilot, all your solo work is "supervised solo" anyway. That means an instructor has to be at the airport to brief you prior to each solo flight, monitor the situation, stand by while you're flying, and debrief you afterward. And an instructor will generally get paid for this supervision, though probably at a discounted rate.

The only time I've seen this close of supervision for solo flight is the first three solo takeoff and landings. If an instructor told me I would be paying for his time [even at a discounted rate] while I'm off on a solo x cntry, our relationship would be terminated.

[drseti]

OK, let me clarify.

There are two separate issues here, local solo practice and XC. In the case of the latter, 61.93(c)(2)(ii) does apply. It says (in part) that the instructor has to approve the student's preparation for each XC flight, including assessing flight conditions, and must make a logbook endorsement to that effect. Wx can only be assessed the day of the flight, and the logbook endorsement must be made after the flight preparations have been verified. I interpret this as meaning I need to meet the student the day of the flight, for a preparation review, signoff, and send-off. There is no requirement that this be done at the airport (though it is usually most convenient to do so there). There is no requirement that I still be there at the airport when the student gets back (though all of my students have preferred for me to be there so they can share/discuss their experiences afterward -- debriefing is, after all, an important part of any instructional experience).

The first (and often second) solo flights are, by tradition and professional best practice, supervised solos. The instructor typically flies some dual pattern practice with the student, determines that she or he is ready to go it alone, signs the logbook and student pilot certificate, and then stands by and watches the student demonstrate competence three times around the pattern (or more, depending upon whether the student elects to do any go-arounds). At my flight school, this is followed by a celebration honoring the world's newest pilot, along with a shirt-tail trimming exercise. I also present the student with a First Solo certificate, take photos, and invite the other students and airport bums to join in the festivities. All of this is difficult to accomplish if the instructor isn't physically present.

For subsequent local solo flights, the FARs are silent, and individual flight school policy comes into play. I find that my students tend to want me (or my Adjunct Flight Instructor) around. Most published curricula (see, for example, Gleim) have "supervised solo" listed for many subsequent lessons. In order to minimize the cost to the student, this is how it usually works at AvSport:

On a given day, the student comes for a lesson, having completed the specified pre-lesson homework assignment. We do a half-hour to an hour or so of individualized ground instruction, and then go fly perhaps a half-hour of dual. This can be used to introduce a new maneuver, or to review previously taught ones. We then taxi back and shut down. I ask the student, "Do you want to go practice that on your own?" and they are usually eager to do so. I send the student off into the practice area for an hour or so, wait in my office (often getting caught up on paperwork), and monitor CTAF closely. Occasionally, the student will radio in a question, and I will be there to answer it. When the student comes back, we put the plane away, fuel it as necessary, and go back to my office together for a post-flight debrief. At this time, we review performance, answer questions, endorse logbooks, schedule the next lesson, and give the student the next homework assignment.

Because students tend to short-change themselves if the clock is running, I flat-rate instructional time by the lesson, rather than billing it by the hour. So, the student knows in advance that the lesson will cost Hobbs time plus a fixed fee for as much ground instruction, dual instruction, and supervision as occurs in any lesson. Since I'm not charging for my time by the hour, I've never had a complaint in over three decades of doing this.

BTW, for those who are wondering about the economics of all this, my flat-rate fee for a lesson is $100 (discounted 10% for prepaid blocks of instruction). Lessons typically run three hours, including ground instruction, pre-flight briefing, flight experience, and debriefing. So, I'm making perhaps $30/hour, about half of what my plumber charges.

[zaitcev]

Because students tend to short-change themselves if the clock is running, I flat-rate instructional time by the lesson, rather than billing it by the hour. So, the student knows in advance that the lesson will cost Hobbs time plus a fixed fee for as much ground instruction, dual instruction, and supervision as occurs in any lesson. Since I'm not charging for my time by the hour, I've never had a complaint in over three decades of doing this.

Does the flat-rating actually help solo students to practice more? I noticed very quickly that I was lazy, e.g. take off, do a couple of S-turns and circles, approximate a short-field landing and call it a flight. So, I started making a minimum action plan ahead of time, e.g. 2 short, 2 soft landings, etc. and check them off at kneeboard. But then I found that practicing is quite tiring. After 2 hours of honest maneuvering I'm so beat that I can hardly drive home. Because of that I have lots and lots of entries for 1.6 and 1.7 flights. The thought of money never crossed my head, even at $130/hr we pay for Cherokee wet. I am sure I would still tend to weasel out of practicing even if paying flat per flight.

[drseti]

Does the flat-rating actually help solo students to practice more?

It doesn't seem to have much effect on their flight time, but it does seem to encourage them to get more ground instruction and tutorial assistance.

As for duration of flight lessons, a USAF study many years ago showed that the ideal length of time in the air (for primary students) was 1.3 hours. Less than that, and you don't get enough practice for anything to stick. Much more, and fatigue degrades your learning experience. So, my typical three-hour block includes about an hour of ground instruction, a 1.3-hour flight lesson, and forty minutes or so of review, debrief, and Q&A. (As the student advances through the training, we tend to gradually increase flight time and decrease ground instruction.)

Note that, since my operation does not have a formal ground school, the individualized ground instruction supplements the reading assignments and Test Prep CD.