Magazine Article

[bryancobb]

Eddie,
Have another glass of iced tea and cool off some more. I'm glad someone else feels like I do about Yozz. I told him to get with the program and cooperate to graduate at least a week ago on this thead. Without an atitude adjustment, he'd be the student from hell. If he did manage to get through a checkride sucessfully before he exhausts the supply of CFI's within 100 miles, I would not want to share the sky with him like he thinks right now.
I wish you luck Yozz, at adjusting your attitude and becoming a humble student who accepts the shortfalls of the flight schools, the instructors, and the aircraft, that make up the system we all operate in. Go get your Special Issuance 3rd class Medical, get you a Subpart H instructor, and go for your Private License, with the personal goal of getting through the checkride WITHOUT BITCHING, EVEN ONCE!

[drseti]

If they are going to teach in my Light Sport aircraft I will make sure they are ready to give instruction the way I want it given in my airplane before I turn them loose.

Hear hear! Well put, Tom.

For those interested, I have my flight school's Policy Manual online (http://AvSport.org -- click on the "ABOUT" tab, scroll down to the bottom of the page, and click on the link under "Business Documents"). Section 6 shows all my rules and procedures for adjunct flight instructors. I have three signed up; all independent contractors. I welcome comments and recommendations, as this is still a work in progress.

[yozz25]

Brian:

If I didn't bitch, this very interesting thread would never have taken off, it is an education to all who read it.

What I learned is the ins and outs of how the flight schools operate, as other students here are currently learning.

One of the problems with this country, and this is the only political statement I'll make, is that people are not taught critical thinking where one must from time to time question those in authority.

When you pay, you certainly have the right to question since it's your money. CFI's are simply human, but sometimes, like in any other industry, one will throw you a curve, just as this school has tried to do, and you owe it to yourself to address the issue.

I guess I must have touched some people's innerds with my posts as evidenced by personal calls of political activist or obama supporter, thrown at someone else. I won't address that since it is personal, no place to be on this board. But as I've said, I will criticize the instructors I've met in the dimension of reality, not limited by this board.

I have no idea what kind of instructors any of you are, so I make no comment, except maybe for Scott, who wants me to clean every bug off his plane. I have enough to do emptying the beer cans and chip bags, and I should clean bugs??????

yozz

[scottj]

You anti-de-bugging guys are failing to see the big picture about bug cleaning. A flight school's job is to teach people how to be Aviators. This is more than just learning to fly an airplane, it is a way of life. Filling the gas tank and cleaning your bugs is part of life.

What I have found is that the Pilots that I have trained, or my staff CFI have trained, will willingly and proactively clean, gas, tie down, and take care of "their" airplane or for their fellow pilot coming in next. The other "renter pilots" show up and expect to have Consierge service for self-service prices.

The same goes for how they taxi, fly, land, brake, and handle the airplane. One group takes care of the equipment, the other beats it. (for the most part, not everyone)

[drseti]

You anti-de-bugging guys are failing to see the big picture about bug cleaning.

Although I am sympathetic to the position expressed by Yozz and others that FBOs should provide value to their paying customers, I am in accord with Scott on this one. Cleaning the plane, tying it down, checking fuel, oil, and tire pressure, and yes, even keeping the canopy clean -- these are all piloting skills, and pilot responsibilities which we flight school operators must both teach and model. This is a very different kind of business from car rental. When I rent a car from Hertz, I'm already a qualified driver and experienced automobile owner -- they're not training me, just lending me a car. Flight schools incur a different obligation altogether, which suggests I need to teach a wide range of skills beyond "airplane driving." I need to instill good habits that are going to lead to improved safety. If one finds cleaning bugs onerous, he or she should probably not be a pilot.

As for how costs are allocated: when I rent that car from Hertz, for example, I have to pay a daily fee for their insurance, or provide my own. When you rent a plane from me, I have already paid over $5000 a year for insurance, as well as another $2500 a year for hangar space, and between $1000 and $2000 for its annual inspection -- all before the plane even flies its first hour. In order to amortize a $120,000 airplane over six years, that brings my annual fixed costs up to around $30k per plane (and that's without even considering flight school expenses, or what it costs per hour to actually operate the plane).

Given the small number of flight hours per year against which these fixed costs must be allocated, you can see that overhead, not consumables, dominates aircraft rental pricing. If I rent the plane for $99 an hour (which is the going rate for LSAs), I need to rent it out 300 hours a year just to break even (excluding fuel, oil, coolant, spark plugs, filters, fuel additives, o-rings, batteries, tires, brakes, oil changes, 100 hour inspections, and routine maintenance). So, it's unlikely I'll actually make any money on the airplane (which is why leasebacks are usually a money-loser for the owner, unless he or she needs a major tax write-off to balance other income). Thus, a flight school has to make its money on instruction.

If, as has been suggested on this list, the renter pays his or her own independent instructor directly, and just rents the plane from the flight school, the flight school doesn't stay in business. I don't see how that benefits the student -- or GA in general, for that matter.

[deltafox]

So much to teach, so much to learn. Way back, one of my instructors actually had the student treat the airplane like he (the student) was the owner, with the thought that the student would eventually buy his own airplane. If the airplane wasn't available because it was due for maintenance, why? What was being done to it? What is TBO? Can a pilot change the bulb for the Nav light? What about the oil, what about spark plugs. This was usually discussed during preflight when one discrepancy or another came up. There is a right way and a wrong way to clean bugs off a windshield, etc. I never saw any empty beverage cans or snack wrappers in any of the planes at that school.

[yozz25]

The only thing I've done in the planes at my airport are tie them down and clean them out.

Not much to clean out.

Actually, since I've only flown in the desert, both here and in phx, perhaps there really isn't much to do as far as cleaning goes. Only once when the plane has been sitting for days on end, did the instructor get some windex or whatever and clean the windshield.

I don't see any bugs, any dirt, nothing on the planes.

As a matter of fact, I rarely remember anyone cleaning anything anywhere in the airport.

Everything always looks good. If the plane needs gas before we start, we simple have a truck come by and put it in for us or we roll it up to the filling station.

I would love to help with maintenance, such as plugs, oil, whatever, I enjoy that, but it's just not done by students, never seen it. We just take our stuff out, tie it down, lock it up and go back.

The warrior I was able to inspect the engine, the remos we don't open anything except to check oil in preflight.

yozz

[scottj]

Now there is a topic in itself... how to clean an airplane window. I never thought of the difference from Minnesota bugs to Nevada desert dust.

But a very important lesson, as anyone who has flown a "halo" window into the setting sun will attest.

1) Hose it down with water first if dusty
2) Windex may not be a good product... check with your manufacturor. We use ComposiClean with Carnuba wax built into the soap, and also Pledge furniture polish. Makes the high speed bugs slide off and the airplane fly faster when kept waxed.
3) Wipe up and down, not in circles. Circles create the halo effect if you are rubbing in dirt.
4) Watch your belt buckle and don't scrape the airplane with it when you lean in to rub.
5) Use only micro fiber towels on the windows.
6) Keep the towels separate... you don't want belly grease and dirt getting onto the windows. I use white t-shirts for the wings etc and colored micro fiber for windows.

That took me two minutes to write. About the same to actually to do...post lesson.

[AZPilot]

You anti-de-bugging guys are failing to see the big picture about bug cleaning.

Although I am sympathetic to the position expressed by Yozz and others that FBOs should provide value to their paying customers, I am in accord with Scott on this one. Cleaning the plane, tying it down, checking fuel, oil, and tire pressure, and yes, even keeping the canopy clean -- these are all piloting skills, and pilot responsibilities which we flight school operators must both teach and model. This is a very different kind of business from car rental. When I rent a car from Hertz, I'm already a qualified driver and experienced automobile owner -- they're not training me, just lending me a car. Flight schools incur a different obligation altogether, which suggests I need to teach a wide range of skills beyond "airplane driving." I need to instill good habits that are going to lead to improved safety. If one finds cleaning bugs onerous, he or she should probably not be a pilot.

As for how costs are allocated: when I rent that car from Hertz, for example, I have to pay a daily fee for their insurance, or provide my own. When you rent a plane from me, I have already paid over $5000 a year for insurance, as well as another $2500 a year for hangar space, and between $1000 and $2000 for its annual inspection -- all before the plane even flies its first hour. In order to amortize a $120,000 airplane over six years, that brings my annual fixed costs up to around $30k per plane (and that's without even considering flight school expenses, or what it costs per hour to actually operate the plane).

Given the small number of flight hours per year against which these fixed costs must be allocated, you can see that overhead, not consumables, dominates aircraft rental pricing. If I rent the plane for $99 an hour (which is the going rate for LSAs), I need to rent it out 300 hours a year just to break even (excluding fuel, oil, coolant, spark plugs, filters, fuel additives, o-rings, batteries, tires, brakes, oil changes, 100 hour inspections, and routine maintenance). So, it's unlikely I'll actually make any money on the airplane (which is why leasebacks are usually a money-loser for the owner, unless he or she needs a major tax write-off to balance other income). Thus, a flight school has to make its money on instruction.

If, as has been suggested on this list, the renter pays his or her own independent instructor directly, and just rents the plane from the flight school, the flight school doesn't stay in business. I don't see how that benefits the student -- or GA in general, for that matter.

The clincher here is that no commercial/fbo/flightschool
insurance policy that I have ever seen, covered an independent CFIs "commercial" sub operation. That means when something goes horribly wrong, heads roll. If the renting fbo/flightschool knows that this is going on and looks the other way, they will have problems as well. Liability is a royal b***h.

[yozz25]

We'll hello fellow desert rat,

Insurance, or rather the regulation thereof was one of my games in former life.

I wondered about "riding" the CFI on the FBO's liab policy.

Is there such a thing as CFI rider?

Ok, let's look at a scenario.

Student such as myself goes up with CFI from Elite Vegas school, we get into nasty crash where I break my valuable pinky finger, remos is trashed.

I go to Mr. Massi, famous Vegas attorney, who has an office in my hood, really!
He files suit, I can no long work, sues School, sues CFI, sues Remos, sues Airport, everyone gets' sued, even the roach on windshield.

CFI does not have pot to piss in, so I wouldnt worry about him. Remos is paid for by hull coverage of schools policy, or perhaps hull coverage of lease back person, who ever, doesn't matter. It is determined that CFI was looking at barmaid as we were descending.

X Insurer covering hull subrogates against CFI' company. Insurer's all bang out a deal in covering this mess, since the great tragedy is my pinky, with which puts me completely out of action and deprives me of valuable income. I get a one million dollar jugdement,question is,is there enough coverage to pay me?

CFI has nothing, do I now own the school?

If CFI did not have coverage, did school have him as a rider/endorsement on policy?

Interesting scenario, but in reality, does anyone here ever examine what does happen when a school plane goes down and a young promising person loses his life leaving a family behind?

yozz

[yozz25]

I didnt' quite get the gist of AZ's post, had to read it again.

So if a person rents a plane from FBO, and takes his own instructor, independent CFI, not the schools, then what happens?

I would guess we would have to read policy of FBO and of CFI to determine if there is any coverage in above scenario.

Have to get a sample of policy on web, unless you guys can do some digging.

yozz

[drseti]

Is there such a thing as CFI rider?

Yes, there is such a thing as CFI insurance, available from Avemco, as well as through NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors -- they use the same insurance agency EAA does). There's a separate "Ask the Insurance Agent" section on this forum, moderated by EAA's agent Bob Mackey -- it might be good to take this thread over there.

[drseti]

does anyone here ever examine what does happen when a school plane goes down and a young promising person loses his life leaving a family behind?

There was a landmark case some years back, along those lines. Fatal accident in a 20+ year old airplane, which (IMHO) was purely pilot error. VFR pilot flew into deteriorating wx, did not do the 180 degree turn, got into IFR and lost control of the aircraft. Representing the victim's heirs, a very prominent Philadelphia aviation attorney (not naming names here, but many of you know to whom I'm referring) sued everybody who ever touched the plane or the pilot. Deepest pockets were those of the major American company that built the aircraft (even though they hadn't seen it since its airworthiness certificate was issued). Plaintiffs won what was then the biggest judgment in aviation insurance history.

Now, two things resulted: (1) the plaintiffs ended up owning the aircraft manufacturing company. I'm sure the attorney got his 40% share. They, of course, ran t he company into the ground. (2) Congress passed limited tort reform, indemnifying manufacturers from liability after X years.

Bottom line: when anything goes to court, everybody except the attorney loses.

[drseti]

Windex may not be a good product...

Indeed. Never use windex, or anything with ammonia, on an aircraft window or canopy. The ammonia attacks the anti-glare coating that most of them use, resulting in severe crazing. These canopies cost several thousand dollars -- which is why many FBOs do not let their students or renters clean them. (A better solution is to have the CFI teach the student/renter how to do it right -- if he or she even knows how!)

[yozz25]

Paul, doc:

I know there is CFI insurance, but is there a "rider" where the CFI is put on the school's policy. I would see this if the CFI was an actual employee, but what if the CFI, as in most cases, is a 1099 guy?

In other words, can a cfi be endorsed or rather named as an insured on school policy?

thanks
yozz