Magazine Article

[rickdaniels]

Can,t remain silent any longer on this thread. I bought my first airplane in the 60's just after getting my PPL and have not had to rent an airplane since. If I had exposure to FBO's or flight schools that treated their customers and student customers like described in this tread, I am afraid I would have lost interest in aviation long ago. If an FBO ever asked me to clean the bugs off an airplane I rented I would not only refuse but would never use that business again. Car rental was used as a comparison earlier in this thread. What would you say if when you returned a rental car, Hertz made you clean the bugs off. (I lived in Minnesota some years ago and I am aware of the bug population there.) If your in business, which I have been for myself all my life, you hire the janitor, don't expect the customer to do it. Treat the customer, including the student customer like a king (even when they are wrong). Students and airplane renters are your customers. I repeat CUSTOMERS!!!!!!! Having said that, the customer has a right to be satisfied that he or she is being properly charged and getting their money's worth but it is not his or her business how the flight school pays it's instructors.

[drseti]

I've never once seen a flight school who pays to get someone trained as a CFI. Heck, most of them charge CFI's to get checked out to teach anymore.

My adjunct flight instructors have to pay wet Hobbs for the airplane (I give them a 10% discount off list). Then, I give them my time for free when checking them out in my plane. So, in a way, I'm subsidizing their training, if not exactly paying them. This is outlined in the Policy Manual on my website: http://AvSport.org (click the "About" tab and then scroll down to the bottom of the page for a link to the Policy Manual in PDF). Take a look at Section 6 - it outlines my full arrangement with my adjunct flight instructors. This setup is fairly typical.

The flight school only sets the price of the airplane, and then the CFI gets to charge how much he/she wants to charge.

What you've described is not really a flight school, just an aircraft rental agency. A true flight school hires, trains, supervises, and pays the CFIs. (In my case, I keep 10% of the CFI fee for overhead and administration).

[drseti]

If an FBO ever asked me to clean the bugs off an airplane I rented I would not only refuse but would never use that business again.

Although I don't ask my students to clean the bugs off, I respectfully disagree. I figure I'm training my students not just to be pilots, but also to be future aircraft owners. Having owned planes for the past 30 years, I figure I know a few things I can pass along. So, part of their instruction is about taking proper care of a plane. Owner maintenance, uncowling the engine, changing oil and brake pads, and yes, even cleaning the airplane, are all part of the curriculum. The student isn't charged extra for the experience, and the clock isn't running -- but if the student's around while I'm doing any preventive maintenance or fueling the plane, you can bet I'm going to give the student a chance to participate. Most jump at the opportunity to get their hands dirty, and to learn more.

[drseti]

We pay our instructors 50% of the CFI charge.

I do it a little differently, Scott. As mentioned in my previous post, I give my adjunct CFIs 90% of the instructional fee -- but they have to pay (90% of standard cost) wet Hobbs for the plane to get their checkouts. This way, I don't have the problem you experienced, of someone leaving after getting a free checkout. They have to commit to some costs up-front, in return for which, they get a pretty good hourly rate.

OK, so I'm a small operation, with only 3 instructors besides myself -- but I've never had the problem you describe (except for maybe the beer bottles. )

[drseti]

He admits he had only 4 hours in lsa,

Yozz, if that's true, the CFI's neck is WAAAAAY out! Until 2 April (when the revised LSA rule went into effect), the FAA required 5 hours in make and model in order to instruct. This is a BARE MINIMUM to be marginally safe. I only have 38 hours in LSA (having just started this particular flight school recently), and I still feel that's not enough. I make a point of telling my students that I'm new to LSA, just like they are -- and my thousands of hours in heavier aircraft don't really mean anything in terms of operating these particular machines. So, I'd really be afraid to fly with an instructor who had only 4 LSA hours. Not only illegal, but just plain dumb!

[rickdaniels]

if the student's around while I'm doing any preventive maintenance or fueling the plane, you can bet I'm going to give the student a chance to participate. Most jump at the opportunity to get their hands dirty, and to learn more.[/quote]

letting them learn how to maintain an airplane and making them do your dirty work is two different things.

[deltafox]

Just joined the forum and want to congratulate you on a GREAT discussion. I've never owned/rented an airplane, but have spent a LOT of time with instructors and Flight School owners. These posts validate what I have seen; the need to make a profit to survive, versus how to motivate employees and keep customers. Thanks all for the valuable insight.

[dstclair]

Cleaning the plane not withstanding, we've diverged into the business model for running a flight school. Scott has been blasted by few for including, what I'd call CFI overhead, into the hourly rate for a CFI. There are those who think that overhead should be in the hourly rental for the plane.

What about the pilot who wants to rent an plane? Why should they pay for CFI overhead (training, insurance, etc)? The renter would be paying for services/goods that they aren't receiving (if CFI overhead is bundled into the hourly rental). Seems like Scott's model puts the instruction costs/overhead on those who are receiving instruction. Has a certain kind of logic.

In professional services, the hourly rate of the consultant has all facets of their compensation (vacation time, sick time, insurance, training, etc) rolled in. Doesn't sound like Scott is doing anything different.

I'm also guessing he publishes his rates. If the CFI rate, and all that entails, doesn't appeal to the customer, then they can choose to go to another flight school.

There are other business models -- to each his own!

[yozz25]

So Dr. Seti"

Being my CFI in your opinion with 4 hrs of remos is way out of bounds, with fed min of 5 hrs, but still not enough, what am I to do?

I always believe that the school, who runs the show, advertises, etc, is the responsible ones here. They are responsible ultimately for my safety, and after an almost spin, an rpm confusion thing, a clogged pitot, hmm, how should I feel, all with this one plane.

To me, in business as in pleasure, the fish stinks from the head. The school owner takes the responsibility here, and as a consumer perhaps it is time for me to open my mouth. If the CFI is found not to have the required hours to teach me, his log will reflect this, then perhaps this should be brought to someones attention.

Even nuts and bolts, the handgrabber probably does not have the time.

I am simply a consumer, the politics tween owner and CFI's are just a curiousity to me, perhaps I should simply cover my own ass first as a consumer and bring this to the attention to the bossman and tell him Ive been screwed, in a nice way, and that perhaps he owes me one.

Let's put it this way, and I'm not going to do it, but lets say the matter was brought to a local small claims court, showed copies of log to court, showed ads for training in remos, should recommended training to be proficient to teach remos. What would happen, would school owe me one?

interesting question.
yozz

[FastEddieB]

Yozz,

It's a beautiful day in the N GA mountains, and I'm in the house cooling down from weed whacking and mower oil changing and maintenance.

But I have to take the time for a quick post...

I'm going for my CFI reinstatement ride in just over a week.

I've always had a reputation as a trouble-shooter. IOW, I've gotten a lot of problem students referred to me and helped them get their licenses/rating.

I enjoy a challenge. But I really don't think I'd take you as a student.

First, I have no idea what derogatory name you might foist on me if you didn't quite agree with my teaching techniques, or if, G*d forbid, I actually touched your hand to put it where it belonged.

In studying for my checkride, I've been reviewing my CFI materials. When I got to the section on "ego defense mechanisms", I just had to think of you.

What I mean is, you're apparently having trouble learning to fly - and its EVERYBODY ELSE'S fault - the instructors (too "crusty" or too new or too physical), the flight schools, the planes, whatever.

If you really want to get a pilot's license, here's what you need to do (IMNSHO):

1) Find a competent instructor. Talk to other students or recently certificated pilots, then ask any recommended instructor what their pass/fail ratio is. They should know it, and I'd be looking for at least a 75% rate.

2) Put yourself in their hands. Never hesitate to question, but don't argue. Don't belittle them here. Don't blame THEM for what might be YOUR shortcomings.

3) Stick with it through ups and downs and plateaus and you WILL get there.

All of us here who are pilots have had sub-optimal, flawed instructors over the years. I know I have. And G*d knows we're imperfect ourselves. But we stuck with it.

Just my .02. YMMV!

[drseti]

The school owner takes the responsibility here, and as a consumer perhaps it is time for me to open my mouth. If the CFI is found not to have the required hours to teach me, his log will reflect this, then perhaps this should be brought to someones attention.

I can only give you my opinion, as a flight school owner. If (in the student's opinion) one of my instructors didn't have sufficient experience or competency in a given aircraft, I'd certainly want the student to tell me about it. Not in a confrontational way, mind you, but with a positive tone: "I'd sure like to train in your Remos, but I don't feel comfortable with the instructor's level of familiarization with this particular plane. Is there any chance you can give him/her a more thorough checkout before the next time I fly?"

That said, be aware that the 5 hour requirement is no longer on the books -- that's one of the things that went away with the rules change on 2 April. Even so, it just makes good sense for your instructors to be well trained in an aircraft before they train others.

[3Dreaming]

The 5 hour requirement was only for a sport instructor. Tom

[drseti]

The 5 hour requirement was only for a sport instructor.

Tom, didn't that also apply to a CFI exercising Sport Pilot privileges? (i.e., lapsed medical). Not that it's relevant anymore...

[3Dreaming]

It was under 61.415 "What are the limits of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating." You as a pilot would be a commercial pilot operating under sport pilot privileges and limitations. You would still be a sub part "H" flight instructor able to give instruction in any non light sport airplane for which you are rated as long as your student is pilot in command. Tom

[3Dreaming]

As the owner of an FBO who does flight instruction and aircraft rental I would like to add a few things. I do all of my instruction myself right now, but when I did have some one working for me I paid just a little over 1/2 of what I took in. In Illinois wether they are a sub contractor or an employee I have to pay workers comp insurance. The rate is about 10% of what they make. If the are an employee I have to match the SS and medicare taxes. I also lose a little of the profit by offering block time to students ( buy 10 hours get 1 free). In the end I like to make a little for taking the risk putting my airplane out there.
The other thing is aircraft insurance. If you have a commercial insurance policy and some one rents your airplane and hires a instructor it becomes a secondary commercial operation and viods your insurance policy. So if some one wants to instruct in my airplane it is best to make the an employee to reap the benifits of my insurance policy.
If they are going to teach in my Light Sport aircraft I will make sure they are ready to give instruction the way I want it given in my airplane before I turn them loose.
Tom