hand on throttle, or not?

[yozz25]

When I first started training, my instructor, under 30, told me to keep my right hand on my knee if not in use. This is how I was broken in to fly and I like it that way.

When I need to use the throttle, or in any moment when I thought I would may need throttle, I would hover my hand over the control. I would hold control only in critical moments.

When I went over to Krusty, old timer, he would constantly grab my hand and put it on throttle. Hmmmmm.

When I went to Arizona and trained with Girlie in Remos, just to try the remos, she would simply tell me the power settings and not concentrate much on keeping hand on throttle.

Now back in Vegas, have the remos at local school, set up with instructor over 50. Keeps grabbing my hand and putting it on throttle. Hmmm, again.

Seems to be a generational thing going on here. Older CFI, hand on throttle, younger not so much emphasis on it.

Another thing I notice is that the older ones tell me that the younger ones who taught me "know nothing". The oldies speak about their hours at the helm. I let it initially go over my head, but after a while, it kind of gets to me.

My take is that the elders resent the young, who also hold the CFI tag, and are hanging on for dear life by repeating their "war stories" in aviation, and estblishing who is boss by abruptly grabbing my hand and putting it on throttle.

It seems the oldies were trained this way, the young not, regarding hand on throttle in what I would call "relaxed flight".

I'm not interested in "office politics" with CFI's, I simply want to be in a relaxed situation and learn to fly properly.

However, what is right? and what is the reason? To throttle or not?

yozz

[glyn]

i was always taught, and teach, to keep my hand on the throttle on take off through climb out and decent to landing. that way at any point in time i need throttle it's there. i dont have to reach for it. just one of those better safe than sorry. for instance, on landing, your hand is in your lap, your 20 feet from the ground and a big tail wind comes up and drops you like a rock. well, because of the drop you raise up in your seat, reach for the throttle only to miss it completely because you were raised up in your seat from the drop.
or "personal experience" full flaps, cessna 150, on a day of giving school kids rides all day in 100 deg temps. i had been flying for about 8 full hrs and a 9 yr old little girl was about to die to go up. long story short. on final about 20 feet up we hit a bump she reached for the yoke and tried to push it through the firewall. only thing that saved me was being able to shove the throttle through the firewall which my hand was already there..
friends told me it looked like i was trying to tail land a 150 all the way down the runway and thought i was showing off. in reality i was trying to save my life.

[yozz25]

Ok, let me clarify a bit.

Going up, you're in full throttle, hand is there anyhow, but yet throttle is all the way in anyhow. Once it is up to firewall, and I'm up there ready after turn to downwind, I loosen up a bit.

Once trimmed for straight flight, I may just relax it a bit and perhaps drop to knee

Going down, yes it is a good idea to be at throttle, especially in scenario you pointed out, especially on final when adjustment is needed. I keep my hand lightly on knob to make smooth adjustments, or push in quickly if need by. Hamhanding the knob only increases tension of flying.

However, when we are doing neither, what to do with hands?

Perhaps the instructor is being a bit hamhanded with me, grabbing my hand and putting firmly on throttle. All he need say is keep hand by throttle. The hamhanding thing seems to be of the old school, doesn't work with me, verbal commands are better

If I were riding with a bunch of unpredictable kids, I either hog tie them, or build a wall around myself, but yes, you have to guard the controls, tha is common sense.

The thought about an unpredictable final, such as a wind blowing downward, yeah, that does make sense. Good to know.

thanks,
yozz

[drseti]

However, what is right? and what is the reason? To throttle or not?

I certainly qualify as an old-timer, Yozz, so take that into consideration. However, there are two times when it makes sense to keep your hand on the throttle: takeoff and landing. In the case of the former, if you have to abort the takeoff, milliseconds count, so being already on the throttle could have safety implications. Similarly in the latter case, should you have to execute a go-around. So, I'd say those are two times that hand-on-throttle makes sense. Otherwise, relax and enjoy the flight!

[yozz25]

Thanks Doc:

Like I said, taking off you make sure its to the firewall. Boy, aborting on takeoff, meaning you have to possibly withdraw throttle. Actually on take off, the hand is naturally on the throttle and stays there at least till you get up.

Landing, of course, my hand hovers right over it, ready to give the plunge. Of course that makes sense, but otherwise I see no other reason.

Coming down, I don't like holding it tightly, I would rather sort of tickle it,or hover, sort of like a prayer bead thing I roll my fingers around it, sort of a rythym thing as I concentrate,but quite effective since I did have to abort landing, no problem, johnny on the spot.

In any case, there is no reason to grab someone's hand abruptly and place it on the throttle, or anywhere else, unless of course it's a young female. A verbal command is just as effective.

Man, I must be a difficult student for the old timers, it seems I just don't get along with them.

yozz

[CharlieTango]

i agree takeoff's for aborting

landing approaches and landings for corrections and go arounds

two more

anytime you are close to the ground (unless you are already wot)

and when maneuvering, might need more power to hold altitude in a steep turn or to close the throttle when going over the top in a wing over.

however

many of us fly behind a rotax and some of us believe flying wot makes sense so when wot and not landing or taking off i don't bother.

[yozz25]

I think what really pissed me off was the "grabbing" of my hand and placing it on the throttle.

It's kind of a crude thing to do when you think of it, sort of old school.

To be quite honest, to handle anyone's hand in such a manner, unless absolutely necessary, is like rubbing a dogs snout in his mess if he craps on the carpet.

I had to really think what bothered me about this, it was the abrupt grabbing, as if I were a 2 year old.

Now tell me, any of you CFI's out there do such a thing to "train" the student not to pee on the rug?

yozz

[drseti]

Now tell me, any of you CFI's out there do such a thing to "train" the student not to pee on the rug?

I started my teaching career in 1973, a time of social change (and at the height of the women's lib movement). Having the occasional female student, it was hammered into me by the administration never to make physical contact of any kind with a student. I think that's still a good policy, regardless of gender (unless you're teaching massage).

[yozz25]

Thanks Prof, or doc

I think I mentioned in another post that teaching just about anything is actually a seduction. It's done smoothly and subtley without ever letting the student realize that he or she is being conned into "good habits".

Some people have this gift naturally, they can take you up in the sky, and have you do over and over what you should be doing, with the voice of Mr. Rogers, or perhaps Mrs. Robinson, for those on the more kinky side. Hmm, or is it in reverse.

But I can see no reason why a CFI has to establish in a harsh way "who is boss", this will surely piss off the student, such as I, and perhaps cause the student to give up flying and take up belly dancing.

I'm at this point. But after I lick my wounds, I go back.

Landing is my weak point. I yearn to do pattern work, to get a technique down pat. I've done enough of all the other stuff whereas I am bored, I don't need to repeat this for the time being, I need to close the gap with the landings, just for my own satisfaction.

This is something I've been trying to get in the head of the old timers who insist on taking me the full turn, stall, slow fly and other routines which my log book says I've done enough of to choke a horse.

They only read my log book after going up, they don't listen to me. Not listening to the student is probably worse than not listening to the instructor.

If taking me on pattern work will make me happy, pattern work till I get sick of it, why not make me happy?

I was taught to land by getting into pattern 1000 feet above agl. Abeam numbers reduce power to predetermined number perhaps 2800 for remos, when speed is appropriate, in the white, one flap, at 45 degrees over shoulder numbers, go into base, roll out, another flap, go into final, another flap, then the fun begins lining up for final,checking airspeed
perhaps 60-65 line use stick and throttle and rudder adjustments to finesse plane to flare over white line.

The oldies don't operate that way, something I'm comfortable with, they are not. But that's how I like to skin the cat, it's more organized, more of a routine that I don't care to be broken out of at this moment.

yozz

[rfane]

The oldies don't operate that way, something I'm comfortable with, they are not. But that's how I like to skin the cat, it's more organized, more of a routine that I don't care to be broken out of at this moment.

Yozz,

Stalls, slow flight, and ground reference maneuvers are all part of learning to land. Each instructor is going to want to see your skills in these areas so they can appraise what they really need to keep an eye on. Get used to it. You are flying on that CFI's ticket, and they will teach you to fly their way, otherwise you will not progress with them. Yes, they can adapt it some, but certain skills have to be built before you can have expectations of moving on to the next phase. That grizzled older CFI will teach you more than you can imagine, but you have to be willing to learn as well.

[chrisw]

The oldies don't operate that way, something I'm comfortable with, they are not. But that's how I like to skin the cat, it's more organized, more of a routine that I don't care to be broken out of at this moment.

yozz

I guess I qualify as an oldie as well, having done my CFI in 1972. I don't quite follow the "don't operate that way" notion though -- if you were a student of mine that's exactly how I'd teach you to enter the pattern and set-up for landing (in contemporary aircraft - I don't teach light sport) -- it's the way I fly day-to-day. I agree that slapping your hand back onto the throttle is poor technique by the CFI; some of us are more old school than others, I guess, or were never taught reasonable teaching techniques. But I must say that I think you are obsessing about the hand placement issue, particularly when it comes to [your word] "hovering" your hand over the throttle. Say what? Does that leave you enough remaining bandwidth to focus on other stuff like, say, landing the aircraft!?

I'm on board with the earlier postings referring to the idea of comfortably resting your hand on the throttle during those times when you might need really quick access to it -- namely takeoffs and landings. And on takeoff that should be to some altitude where you've got a little time to think about things in the event of an engine failure. If you had an engine failure shortly after take-off and were committed to an emergency landing site, you would not be the first to overshoot that selected spot because you hadn't retarded the throttle, only to have the engine "catch" just long enough to take you past your safe landing spot and potentially into disaster.

Chris

[yozz25]

The bottom line is that this instructor is a bit anal, perhaps more than a bit.

Being a strange duck myself, I realize he is in the strange duck category, but on a different end of the spectrum in strangeness than myself.

This is the second oldie that had to pee on his territory to establish who is boss. Again, it's evident in telling me the youngin's know jack, how many hours at the helm along with hamhandedness. Enough to wanna make me vomit. Looking at this ducks schedule, he is on the very low side of bookings, compared to his buddies at the school.

The first guy, Krusty, told me I'd better book fast with him since he gets booked real quick. This is vegas, home of the biggest bs artists the world can produce, even I'm here. One bs artist can sniff out another.

He's an independent with his own plane, I learned not to fly with this type, since he'd kill you if you even farted on his seat. Best to be in a neutral plane.

Some CFI's have gold on their tongues, some don't.

As for hovering when coming down, yes, it is more like a touch, no touch thing with me, it wouldn't matter if I had to pull or push in case of an emergency, my hand is simply there. You can screw up being too tighten just as much as being too loose or in a hover.

As I develop more awareness, my habits may change, perhaps I'll tighten up more, perhaps hover more, the main thing is my comfort in throttle control.

In the meantime, I'll bide my time.

I've cancelled future flights with hamhands, go back to the school tomorrow, where the manager, who said I will be treated with "kid gloves", will listen to my tale of Mr. anal, and we'll see what will be done.

Like I said, this is vegas, everyone promises to treat you with kid gloves, even the slot machines tell you that.

yozz

[bryancobb]

"Just the facts" sir...
1) Lots of pilots get in situations where they need to add throttle VERY QUICKLY to keep from pranging an aircraft, or getting hurt, OR DYING.
2) Doing this is quicker if your hand is close to the knob.
3) Personalities sometimes clash
4) A student pilot needs to remove any BARRIERS to learning
5) If the instructor's STYLE is a barrier to learning that can't be overcome, get another instructor.
I had a total stranger correct me in a restaurant the other day. She told me to "stop biting my nails." (a habit since childhood) She made me feel the same way your instructor made you feel when he snatched your hand and put it on the throttle. If that lady was my flight instructor, I'd get another one imediately unless she was exceptional in MANY ways.

[yozz25]

Thank you Mr. Cobb:

Straight to de point. Will get another instructor.

But don't bite your nails, nasty habit, I would pepper spray them when you're asleep.

thanks
yozz

[AZPilot]

I used to interview almost all new student prospects at our school. The idea was to try to align a given student with
a compatible CFI right out of the gate.

One thing that I told all students and prospects: If for ANY reason you don't feel comfortable with your CFI, come to me and we will assign another one. That included any real or imagined problems,and that there was "no harm, no foul" for
making the request. I would rather fix any compatibility issues BEFORE irreconsirible harm was done. (This was for everyones benefit: student doesn't learn if they are not comfortable; CFI gets frustrated; and flight school loses
money if a student is run off FOR ANY REASON).

The student is spending their money, and a school should give them the best training that can be provided, in a safe,
secure, comfortable, fun atmosphere.