tailwheel endorsment

[seastar]

Does anyone know if a tailwheel endorsement counts as a BFR??
Bill

[rfane]

A BFR is a seperate signature by the CFI. Both can be completed at the same time, but the tailwheel endorsement does not satisfy the BFR requirement, in the same way that earning an additional certificate does.

[seastar]

I looked up the regulations for flight reviews:

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and

(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

(e) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency award program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

It looks to me as though (d) above allows the tailwheel endorsement to be used for a flight review since it is an "operating privilege".

Am I wrong????
Bill

[3Dreaming]

Normally a tailwheel endorsement is done by an instructor. I didn't see instructor listed in (d). I would suggest that you talk to who ever is going to do the tailwheel endorsement and ask them if they would consider it to cover the the flight review covered by 61.56. Tom

I looked up the regulations for flight reviews:

(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and

(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

(e) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, satisfactorily accomplished one or more phases of an FAA-sponsored pilot proficiency award program need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

It looks to me as though (d) above allows the tailwheel endorsement to be used for a flight review since it is an "operating privilege".

Am I wrong????
Bill

[drseti]

pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege

Bill, some flight instructors are indeed "an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force." Most are not. However, any flight instructor can choose to include in a tailwheel endorsement checkout (or any other flight) all content required to be able to also call it a flight review, and log it accordingly. Just make sure you discuss this with him or her before you fly.

[bryancobb]

Any CFI (Helicopter/Glider/Light Sport, etc.) can give any pilot a FLIGHT REVIEW.
A pilot can do the FLIGHT REVIEW in any aircraft they have a rating in. (Helicopter/Glider/Light Sport) One Flight Review in any one makes the pilot current in all.
The CFI has to be AUTHORIZED to give dual in THAT aircraft.
For a Tailwheel checkout to count as a FLIGHT REVIEW, FAR 61.56(a)(1) MUST BE MET.
The instructor has to feel that what has taken place during the instructional flight meets FAR 61.56(a)(2).
THEN THE INSTRUCTOR MUST WORD THE LOGBOOK ENDORSEMENT CORRECTLY SO THAT THE FLIGHT REVIEW IS DOCUMENTED.
IT MUST ALSO CONTAIN WORDING THAT MEETS THE TAILWHEEL ENDORSEMENT DOCUMENTATION REQUIREMENTS.


FAR's say what MUST take place for it to count as a FLIGHT REVIEW.
§ 61.56 (a) a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:
(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and
(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.


The only gray area is...FAR 61.56(c)(1) says the FLIGHT REVIEW must take place in an aircraft that the pilot is already RATED in.
If TAILWHEEL is a RATING, the pilot can't do the flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
If TAILWHEEL is NOT a rating, then the pilot can do the flight review in a tailwheel airplane.


I INTERPRET FAR 61.31(h)(2)(i)(1) THAT TAILWHEEL IS NOT A RATING.

[drseti]

Bryan's summary of the FARs is entirely correct. He has also correctly identified the one gray area. I share his interpretation. But, as a precaution, I would do the tailwheel endorsement first, log it, and THEN complete and log the rest of the flight review.

[3Dreaming]

No grey area here. Your rating is airplane single engine land. To fly a tail wheel airplane you must have additional training. For a flight review you must have training (at least 1 hour). If the instructor thinks the training for the tail wheel endorsement is enough for the Flight review he can sign it off. Some instructors may use the PTS standards as a guide for doing a flight review and require additional training beyond that required for the tail wheel endorsement. I have seen places advertise that thier tail wheel endorsement package would also double as a flight review. When I had my Cub for training I grouped them together many times, but I did my flight review in the same Cub and the instructor giving it to me also wanted to do some instrument traing. What it all boils down to is if the instructor you are working with feels OK with signing both off. Tom

[drseti]

No grey area here. Your rating is airplane single engine land.

Well, sort of. His category and class are airplane single engine land. His rating is probably sport pilot. Other ratings include private pilot, commercial pilot, airline transport pilot, instrument, certified flight instructor, etc.

Back to the question, which was whether a tailwheel endorsement is an additional rating, in the context of a flight test for an additional rating counting as a flight review: I don't think it is, which is why the instructor intending to let a tailwheel endorsement count as a flight review should explicitly log it as such.

Now, as pointed out, a flight review must be taken in an aircraft for which the applicant is rated. Are you "rated" for a tailwheel aircraft before you get a tailwheel endorsement? Probably not (this is the gray area I was talking about). So, just to be safe, if I'm giving an applicant both, I complete and log his or her tailwheel endorsement before I conduct and log the flight review.

Are we confused yet?

[3Dreaming]

In his case looking back through his post he is a private pilot operating under sport pilot privileges and limitations. Before or after the endorsement he is still rated airplane single engine land. So he would be rated in the airplane and OK to take the flight review along with the endorsement. He also says he started flying 50 years ago in a J3 Cub. If he has any PIC time in the Cub he does not need the endorsement anyway.

[drseti]

He also says he started flying 50 years ago in a J3 Cub. If he has any PIC time in the Cub he does not need the endorsement anyway.

That's right! I had forgotten about the grandfather clause (even though it applies to me).

[3Dreaming]

[Quote] Now, as pointed out, a flight review must be taken in an aircraft for which the applicant is rated. Are you "rated" for a tailwheel aircraft before you get a tailwheel endorsement? Probably not (this is the gray area I was talking about). So, just to be safe, if I'm giving an applicant both, I complete and log his or her tailwheel endorsement before I conduct and log the flight review. [Quote]


Someone could also do the reverse and take a flight review in a tail wheel airplane while not having the endorsement. You could meet the requirements for a flight review and still not meet the requirements for the tail wheel endorsement. Several years ago I renewed my CFI using a video program. They even suggested having the person seeking the flight review to do this instead of flying the same ole airplane that they are familure with.

[3Dreaming]

[Quote] Well, sort of. His category and class are airplane single engine land. His rating is probably sport pilot. Other ratings include private pilot, commercial pilot, airline transport pilot, instrument, certified flight instructor, etc. [Quote]

If he was a sport pilot he could still do both at the same time as long as the tail wheel airplane meets the requirements of a light sport aircraft. If the airplane does not meet the requirements of a light sport aircraft he could still do the tail wheel endorsement, but would have to find an aircraft that meets the requirements of a light sport aircraft to do the flight review.

[seastar]

Seems very clear to me - the FAR's are vague and grey in this area --LOL!
Thanks for all the input,
Here is the problem - I started to learn to fly in a J3 but never soloed. I do not have PIC time in a Cub.
I just ordered a Cub Crafters Carbon Cub SS and am trying to get the tailwheel endorsement in a PA 18 Super Cub before my new airplane is delivered - both for the experience and to build some tailwheel hours for insurance purposes (and my a$$).
I have a private, multi, instrument with about 5500 hours total.
However my medical has expired.
My understanding is that I am the PIC when taking the flight review and therefore I can not legally fly the PA 18 for that purpose (no medical) but can fly it for instruction where the instructor is the PIC..
So, I wondered if the tailwheel endorsement would count as a BFR as does an instrument review or a new rating.

Now, can you guys tell me how to smoothly land this damn thing????
Bill

[3Dreaming]

For the flight review you are not PIC. The regs say instruction for the flight review. If you had to be PIC for a flight review anyone who let there BFR expire could never get legal to fly again without adding a new rating. You can do your flight review in the PA-18 without the medical. You just can't go fly it without the instructor because you need the medical to be PIC. For the landings think soft field procedure until you get the landing attitude down. Tom