Learning to Land

[FastEddieB]

44x1.3=57

All things being equal, I'd probably have you shoot for "about" 60k on a full-flap final, with a drop-dead "no-less-than" speed of 55k. Again, I'd like to see the throttle at idle by about 100' with the runway made, and no less than 55k held until the roundout begins*.

Do NOT argue with your instructor. I would, however, ask where the 70k speed is coming from. Honestly, that's a lot closer to Cirrus SR22 speeds (77k for short field, 80k normal).

*all this assumes relatively steady winds. Speeds in gusty conditions should be a little higher.

[yozz25]

Good question, looking at the sr22, that is craft with 310 hp (right)?

I have no intention of arguing with anyone, just want to get the specs right, but all I can see in the corner of my eye to the right is a mad man pulling the reigns back on a horse, kind of gives me the willys

For the most part, the wind is not much here, as a matter of fact, the most enjoyable landing was with the wind blowing towards us a bit, whereby I approached a bit shallow and had more control and sort of came in lower with a squirt of power to give a little needed push.

I like that one, but will be sure to ask him, perhaps he is a bit confused himself, anything is possible, since I feel that I can do it shooting below 70, tween 60-65 with all calm.

But I'm far from an expert, perhaps I need an older instructor.
thanks loads
yozz

[FastEddieB]

Good question, looking at the sr22, that is craft with 310 hp (right)?

Yep. Vso is 59k. Normal approach is 80k with full flaps, and 77k short field, though many pilots reduce that if lighter than gross (which you always are to some extent by the time youi land). Here's one of my students doing a VERY nice approach and landing at a N GA mountain strip (Wimpy's/Dahlonega 9A0):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4OBrYTRrA

Notice:

1) The power was at or near idle by 50' or so
2) The roundout began before the intended point of landing (one of the displaced threshold arrows so as to land on the numbers)
3) Though I didn't hear the stall warning horn, I can verify the stick was all the way back, or nearly so
4) Note how far down the runway the nose stays up

Note also that the runway is 3,000', and I've had Cirrus pilots tell me they're nervous with runways that "short".

...as a matter of fact, the most enjoyable landing was with the wind blowing towards us a bit, whereby I approached a bit shallow and had more control and sort of came in lower with a squirt of power to give a little needed push.

Hmmm...

Headwinds are a good thing, reducing the groundspeed on touchdown. But, in general, a stronger wind will result in a steeper approach, not a shallower one, all things being equal.

To see that more clearly, picture the approach angle if you were approaching at 70k IAS into a 70k headwind. What do you imagine your approach angle would look like?

Hint: it rhymes with gerticle!

[rsteele]

Eddie wrote

yozz,

What kind of plane are you flying, and what is Vso?

I only ask because 70k seems kinda fast for final in the typical LSA.

And I was thinking along the same lines as drseti - if the runway is really long, a stop and go might calm things down.

BTW, its not hard landings that wear tires, its fast landings.

I'm practicing in a piper warrior, there are no sports stuff in my neck of the woods, the
Vso is 44

I'm getting experience in warrior in order to just get the feel of flying then will go down to AZ to try out the LSA
yozz

I sympathize with wanting to work locally in the warrior. I did the same thing in a Cessna. I gotta tell you, I'm not sure it's the best thing to do. Depending on the LSA you will be flying it could be very different, and will likely be much simpler.

For starters, most LSA's use Rotax engines with Bing carbies. This means no carb heat and no mixture. It seem small but in the early days, its just that much less to worry about. Also the slower approach/stall speeds really give you much more time think and react in that last couple of seconds before touchdown.

On the other hand the LSA may require a LOT of right rudder at high power settings, and flying the Warrior won't prepare you for that.

If you can swing it, go get at least a demo ride in your target aircraft. It might clarify some things for you.

Ron

[FastEddieB]

This means no carb heat and no mixture.

My Sky Arrow with a ROTAX 912ULS2 does have carb heat.

And I'd KILL for a mixture - it makes no sense that my range goes down with altitude!

[CharlieTango]

My Sky Arrow with a ROTAX 912ULS2 does have carb heat.

And I'd KILL for a mixture - it makes no sense that my range goes down with altitude!

our ct's have carb heat (not that it works well)

eddie, are your carbs set up correctly? i find that 7,500 msl is the sweet spot for best performance and best range seems to be around 10,000'

my plugs always look good, i think the auto-mixture works pretty well.

yozz,

ron has a good point, depending on the lsa it could be a big adjustment. if you were going to a ct for instance the ct would be simpler, things would happen slower but the skill level required for energy management on landings would be much higher. skill level required for gusty condtions would be much higher as well.

stop by flight design west, http://www.flightdesignwest.com/ aka lone mountain aviation and recommend that they begin giving lsa training.

[FastEddieB]

eddie, are your carbs set up correctly? i find that 7,500 msl is the sweet spot for best performance and best range seems to be around 10,000'

my plugs always look good, i think the auto-mixture works pretty well.

CharlieTango,

I think we've drifted pretty far off the thread topic.

Give me a chance and I'll start a new thread on this topic, probably tomorrow morning.

[yozz25]

Yeah, you guys are right, I do intend to give it a whirle soon in an lsa to see what I'm coming into.

The medical thingy pisses me off, since my problem is an anti-depressant which is a no no, and I can't deal with FAA paper work, surely to be denied. Otherwise other routine medical stuff would be no problem.

Yeah, got a bit confused with steep and shallow but fast eddie knows what I mean, I have to sort of visualize what I'm talking about.

Thanks for the info on the LSA place in N. Las Vegas.

Another question if you guys don't mind.

I pay 99 bucks per hobbs hour for de plane, 49 for the CFI. On my invoice, it would say 99 plane, 49 instuctor, then they would add say a factor of .3 x 49 for ground instuction, sometimes 15 to 20 bucks it comes out to. Usually a factor of .3 or .4 The previous instructor actually put .7 making it 34 bucks, got rid of him.

I was not in the mood to argue, I'm so tired after the instuction which usually lasts say 1.5 hours or so. Spoke with a friend who said some schools do this whereby the CFI is supposed to sit with me and critique me for 20 mins or so.

I was never sat down with and spoken to, all we do is walk out to plane, do walk around checking out, get in plane, go through check list and fly.

any thoughts.

yozz

[drseti]

I pay 99 bucks per hobbs hour for de plane, 49 for the CFI. On my invoice, it would say 99 plane, 49 instuctor, then they would add say a factor of .3 x 49 for ground instuction, sometimes 15 to 20 bucks it comes out to.

Yozz, it's always problematical when an instructor charges by the hour (which, I'm afraid, is the norm). On the one hand, the CFI expects to be paid for his or her time, whether it's spent with you in the air or on the ground. On the other hand, if the clock's running on instructor hours, the student may hesitate to ask questions which really should be asked, and answered.

My solution (arrived at only after about three decades of teaching) is to charge for my time by the lesson, rather than by the hour. In my case, the typical lesson will last two hours or so - it's not unusual to spend fifteen to thirty minutes before a flight introducing the lesson, another fifteen to thirty after the flight reviewing and recapping, and a flight of anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half.

The student has to pay for the plane by the Hobbs meter, of course, but for the CFI, the charge is a flat $100 per lesson. That averages $50/hr for a typical lesson, which is pretty much par, so you could argue that it doesn't make any difference. But it does! Consider that if you fly with me and didn't understand something, or have questions, or want me to explain why we did what we did, if you're paying me by the hour you're going to be in a hurry to leave. My way, there's no financial pressure for you to deny yourself an important part of the learning experience, and no financial incentive for me to drag a lesson out more than is necessary. So, it's win-win for both of us.

This is explained in far greater detail on my website, http://AvSport.org (click on the "INSTRUC" tab), but you get the idea.

[drseti]

But I'm far from an expert, perhaps I need an older instructor.
yozz

Us graybeards sure love to hear a student say that!

[yozz25]

I can undersand that these young instructors want more than whats on the hobbs, it just hasn't been explained to me.

I figured they were putting in the time outside of hobbs, such as the preflight check.

Being a newbie, I'm learning the skill as well as the business end that goes with it, have to ask questions, and realize that CFI cannot always give me the how and why of say why I have to learn slow flight, steep banks without losing much altitude if any, step climbs slowly and quickly.

This all comes together perhaps with some ground school and study on my part. Better to know these options exist if I need them.

Its a learning thing, through repetition of many facets, things will sooner or later click for most of us.

I guess after about 15 hours, most newbies can reasonably take off, buzz around a bit, get back, enter a pattern and put it down without breaking thrings up.

But that is only the beginning, much much more to learn when you throw in curve balls of wind management among other goodies that come with flyiing.

Rolling the craft on my ample runway, keeping it reasonable straight with feet and lifting off gently gives me the greatest kick, next to entering pattern, and descending through the legs to landing, another kick. For the time, I'm happy with that, even though it is only the beginning.
yozz

[drseti]

For the time, I'm happy with that, even though it is only the beginning.

Yozz, it sounds to me as though you're off to a really good start. Keep up the good work, be safe, and have fun!

[FastEddieB]

New thread on ROTAX's, Bings, auto-mixture and such started here:

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=7191#7191