Short Field Takeoff

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Jim Hardin
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Short Field Takeoff

Postby Jim Hardin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:54 pm

I did watch Paul's recent webinar on the subject. http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/videos/webinars/video/5987956462001/webinar--less-than-ideal:-short-field-soft-field-and-obstacle-operations?autoStart=true

AOPA presented one recently on the technique but I can't find it. They were using a C-180 and tried all the usual techniques such as tail up, tail down, flaps set or popping the flaps. In the end they found that the aircraft left the ground in a significantly shorter distance by remaining in the tail down flaps set condition. Why on earth you would choose a taildragger to conduct this when the vast majority of planes/pilots are tricycle gear beats me!

I have always wanted to test this in tricycle landing gear but not going to be able to, any time soon. They used a camcorder setup to cover the takeoff point which should be easy at most small airports. I am predisposed to think flaps set, full power with brakes on then release and hold as near a tail dragging attitude will beat any other techniques...

Would welcome the results anyone can produce.

Takers? :wink:

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FastEddieB
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:25 pm

Jim Hardin wrote:I am predisposed to think flaps set, full power with brakes on then release and hold as near a tail dragging attitude will beat any other techniques...


Not sure about the bolded part.

My thought is you’re trying to minimize drag in all it’s forms. That includes induced drag. Hence, I’d think you’d want to maintain zero angle of attack until ready to fly. Tail down would create lift prematurely and unnecessary drag.

All bets are off on a soft field, where you might be better off trading a little more induced drag for a little less rolling drag.

Make sense?
Fast Eddie B.
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Warmi
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby Warmi » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:36 pm

Well, I think they used a tail dragger because most of people who need to take off short are flying taildraggers - the backcountry crowd.

If you want to see a tricycle doing similar magic lookup Zenith 750 short take off videos on youtube... too me personally seems like a tricycle with proper tires is just as good for this purpose as any taildragger and has all the benefits of a modern gear ( naturally more stable with better visibility )
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby Jim Hardin » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 am

FastEddieB wrote:
Jim Hardin wrote:I am predisposed to think flaps set, full power with brakes on then release and hold as near a tail dragging attitude will beat any other techniques...


Not sure about the bolded part.

My thought is you’re trying to minimize drag in all it’s forms. That includes induced drag. Hence, I’d think you’d want to maintain zero angle of attack until ready to fly. Tail down would create lift prematurely and unnecessary drag.

All bets are off on a soft field, where you might be better off trading a little more induced drag for a little less rolling drag.

Make sense?


That would be my thought, but look at the video and see we are both wrong...

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby Jim Hardin » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 am

Warmi wrote:Well, I think they used a tail dragger because most of people who need to take off short are flying taildraggers - the backcountry crowd.

If you want to see a tricycle doing similar magic lookup Zenith 750 short take off videos on youtube... too me personally seems like a tricycle with proper tires is just as good for this purpose as any taildragger and has all the benefits of a modern gear ( naturally more stable with better visibility )


Not the point! Talking about tricycle landing gear aircraft technique, not some purpose built grasshopper :D

3Dreaming
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:47 am

It always seemed to me that many airplanes get off the ground quicker doing a simulated soft field take off compared to a short field done by the book. The problem is that once off the ground there is no energy to climb.

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Short Field Takeoff

Postby Jim Hardin » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:01 pm

3Dreaming wrote:It always seemed to me that many airplanes get off the ground quicker doing a simulated soft field take off compared to a short field done by the book. The problem is that once off the ground there is no energy to climb.


Yes you would have to accelerate in ground effect to reach Vx. But that is a different question ~ takeoff distance to clear 50' obstacle.


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