Pulling the Chute

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SportPilot
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby SportPilot » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:28 pm

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CTLSi
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby CTLSi » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:53 pm

SportPilot wrote:Which "gadgets" do you think a 767 pilot would not be familiar with?

As has been requested many times before please stop using my real name in posts...
Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby Nomore767 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:03 pm

"Since you seem confused let's get more aquainted.

I am a private pilot and am about 30 days away from my instrument checkride (I was never a sport pilot). I have several hours in dual-IMC flight.

I have 200 plus hours in an FD CTLSi equipped with dual Dynon Skyviews, ADS-B, Mode S XPNDR (TIS-TCAS), and a BRS chute which I own. I also have time in a Zenith CH650 & 750 STOL, Lancair ES, Cessna 172 & 182, Cirrus SR22 equipped with deicing, lightning protection, and a ton of other gadgets you would not be familiar with...

My next plane is the Lancair ES-P, pressurized with Garmin G3x touch, Garmin GTN750, an all-airframe BRS chute, deicing, and a top cruise of 225ktas @ FL250 (should be ready early next year).

But the subject is the safety offered by an all-airframe parachute...and apparently somewhat on the subject of SLSA and IMC. I think my commentary stands on it's own…"

Cecil,

First off the post which you responded (and quoted) to wasn't direct at YOU (Cecil) personally it was to 'you' generally as in anyone :-

"If you're only a sport pilot but you want to fly IFR in IMC then you need to upgrade your license and ratings and move up to the appropriate level of airplane."
Somehow you seem to think it was directed at you, but I'm not sure why.

The point was that if anyone flies an LSA as a sport pilot then they know what the limitations of that type of flying to begin with to which you introduced icing and lightning protection and flying in IMC.
You wrote:
"No SLSA has lightning or ice protection. Flying in IMC is ill-advised even if the POH doesn't specifically prohibit it."
…and nobody understands why. But it's of little consequence really.

The CTLSi you have is equipped almost identically to my airplane except that I have a single Touch screen and of course, no chute. To compare notes, I have 152 hours in my airplane in just this past year and just under 200 hours total in light sport planes and a total of 2000+ in a whole host of other single engine planes, all the Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcrafts amongst others. The LSAs I've flown are CTLS, RV-12, CC Sport Cub, Champ, and Remos GX and I can't remember the others. Most of the bulk of the rest of my flight time is in bigger multi-engine and transport airplanes. The only one I flew with a chute installed was the CTLS.

Good luck with your instrument rating training. I got my Instrument Rating many years ago in a Piper Archer 11.

But the subject IS NOT "the safety offered by an all-airframe parachute...and apparently somewhat on the subject of SLSA and IMC" only you seem to have introduced that idea.
It was originally about pulling the chute and why some pilots, in an airplane WITH a chute, opted NOT to use the chute and instead force landed still totaling the airplane. A result that would have been the same if they weren't equipped with a chute in the first place.

If the airplane is touted as being 'safer' because of the chute installation but then the chute isn't used in the very situation for which it's installed it begs the question why is it regarded as a 'safer airplane?'. As opposed to say the exact same model without a chute installed.
Yes the chute is an item of safety equipment but in the cases I cited it wasn't used and therefore was simply extra weight. Not criticizing the pilot, they decided not to use to the installed chute as they made their forced landing and I'm not judging that in any way.
The other part of the original post was regarding what kind of training is given to customers or students regarding the installation of the chute, it's operation, and the scenarios in which they would be able to utilize the chute as a means to try and save themselves if not the airframe. You somehow seemed to miss that point.
For me, the school I used seemed afraid of the chute 'going off' and it being easily deployed accidentally and so the only reference ever made to me regarding it was 'let's leave the pin installed' as said by the instructor. Not sure I agreed with the going off accidentally part but hey he was the CFI and the PIC so I deferred to him.

So your commentary on SLSAs in IMC, icing and even lighting, in light of the thread topic, seems odd.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SportPilot
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby SportPilot » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:23 pm

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Last edited by SportPilot on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dstclair
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby dstclair » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:09 pm

Yes the chute is an item of safety equipment but in the cases I cited it wasn't used and therefore was simply extra weight. Not criticizing the pilot, they decided not to use to the installed chute as they made their forced landing and I'm not judging that in any way.
The other part of the original post was regarding what kind of training is given to customers or students regarding the installation of the chute, it's operation, and the scenarios in which they would be able to utilize the chute as a means to try and save themselves if not the airframe. You somehow seemed to miss that point.
For me, the school I used seemed afraid of the chute 'going off' and it being easily deployed accidentally and so the only reference ever made to me regarding it was 'let's leave the pin installed' as said by the instructor. Not sure I agreed with the going off accidentally part but hey he was the CFI and the PIC so I deferred to him

Back to the original topic. I agree that there is a general lack of training in the S-LSA in regards to deploying a chute. We have a few Cirrus pilots on SPT that have mentioned that transition training for a Cirrus includes extensive training on the chute (Eddie and Bryan?). Transition to new LSA's is very dealer dependent and is likely not to discuss chute deployment scenarios. I've arrived at my own criteria for deployment which pretty much matches Andy.

It will be interesting as younger pilots take to the air and will a chute be more prominent choice in an emergency than it seems to be for the older pilots that learned to fly before full-airframe chutes.
dave

BrianL99
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby BrianL99 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:56 pm

[i]>>"Since you seem confused let's get more aquainted.

I am a private pilot and am about 30 days away from my instrument checkride (I was never a sport pilot). I have several hours in dual-IMC flight.

I have 200 plus hours in an FD CTLSi equipped with dual Dynon Skyviews, ADS-B, Mode S XPNDR (TIS-TCAS), and a BRS chute which I own. I also have time in a Zenith CH650 & 750 STOL, Lancair ES, Cessna 172 & 182, Cirrus SR22 equipped with deicing, lightning protection, and a ton of other gadgets you would not be familiar with...

My next plane is the Lancair ES-P, pressurized with Garmin G3x touch, Garmin GTN750, an all-airframe BRS chute, deicing, and a top cruise of 225ktas @ FL250 (should be ready early next year).<<
[/i]

That's mind boggling.

200 hours and going to fly a pressurized Lancair? I'd not only make sure the whole plane parachute is working properly, I'd strap another one onto your butt, you're going to need it.

BrianL99
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby BrianL99 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:04 pm

Someone earlier in the thread (I think NoMore767) mentioned "passenger briefing" with regards to the parachute.

My standard passenger briefing includes the following:


"If anything weird happens, which I certainly don't expect, but if I have a heart attack or something while flying, this is what you do: Keep calm. Tighten your seat belt. Push that red button on your stick and talk with whoever answers. After you tell them what happened and what's going on, make sure you tell them you're in an airplane that's equipped with a full airframe parachute. If no one answers, pull the throttle all the way back, try to keep the airplane level, aim it for an open area on the ground and pull that red handle behind your left ear."

I'm certainly open for comments, suggestions, etc.

3Dreaming
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:21 pm

CTLSi wrote:The Flight Design CTLS has spine protecting force absorbing seats and an 'egg' similar to modern car designs. The cabin remains stable while the energy is absorbed in peripheral areas.

No SLSA has lightning or ice protection. Flying in IMC is ill-advised even if the POH doesn't specifically prohibit it.


An all metal SLSA has the same lightening protection as any other non composite single engine aircraft flying in IMC. It is the fancy composite airplanes like the CTLSi that need lightening protection added to their structure.
Ice protection is also not common on most small single engine aircraft flying in IMC.

Daleandee
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby Daleandee » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:47 pm

*
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BrianL99
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby BrianL99 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:41 am

Daleandee wrote:
BrianL99 wrote:My standard passenger briefing includes the following:


"If anything weird happens, which I certainly don't expect, but if I have a heart attack or something while flying, this is what you do: Keep calm. Tighten your seat belt. Push that red button on your stick and talk with whoever answers. After you tell them what happened and what's going on, make sure you tell them you're in an airplane that's equipped with a full airframe parachute. If no one answers, pull the throttle all the way back, try to keep the airplane level, aim it for an open area on the ground and pull that red handle behind your left ear."


I don't have the option of a chute on my experimental. But years ago our EAA chapter was urging frequent riders and significant others to take the AOPA "Pinch Hitter" program. Even some basic instruction on how to use the radio and letting them hold the controls a bit would help build a passenger's confidence. Your first instruction is the key to it all, "keep calm!"

Dale
N319WF
http://kitplanes2.com/blog/2013/12/ownerbuilder-2/
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Back when I had adult supervision (my girlfriend frequently flew with me), I had her take 8 hours of Instruction.

Years ago, a woman I know landed her father's Malibu, when both her Mother & Father suffered strokes within a few minutes of each other. She had a few hours of Instruction through the years and paid attention when her Dad was flying.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:03 am

3Dreaming wrote:An all metal SLSA has the same lightening protection as any other non composite single engine aircraft flying in IMC. It is the fancy composite airplanes like the CTLSi that need lightening protection added to their structure.


Pretty far off topic, but beyond lightning protection something called "P-static" can plague composite airframes.

At least in the Cirrus, under certain flight conditions - usually light rain or snow/ice crystals - static can build up on the airframe, causing static in the radios and wreaking havoc with avionics in general.

Metal airplanes can have the same issue, but their much longer history has led to more consistent solutions, with static discharge wicks and equivalent.

Anyway, Cirrus struggled with this for years, and I had two episodes in my 2003 SR22 over about 4 years. Reading about it far less often on the forum now, so maybe they've finally gotten a handle on it.

Back on topic, anyone with a BRS system or considering one should watch this video:

http://youtu.be/Pc6v-hWCSqc

I've posted the link before, but there are always newbies who might have missed it. A bit long and dry, but well worth it for the information contained therein.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

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MrMorden
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby MrMorden » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:33 am

BrianL99 wrote:Someone earlier in the thread (I think NoMore767) mentioned "passenger briefing" with regards to the parachute.

My standard passenger briefing includes the following:


"If anything weird happens, which I certainly don't expect, but if I have a heart attack or something while flying, this is what you do: Keep calm. Tighten your seat belt. Push that red button on your stick and talk with whoever answers. After you tell them what happened and what's going on, make sure you tell them you're in an airplane that's equipped with a full airframe parachute. If no one answers, pull the throttle all the way back, try to keep the airplane level, aim it for an open area on the ground and pull that red handle behind your left ear."

I'm certainly open for comments, suggestions, etc.


My briefing is not dissimilar. My goal with non-pilots is to give them a set of instructions they will be able to follow under extreme stress. That usually means simpler is better. I try to break it down to four steps.

1) Hit the autopilot engage button. (that puts the AP in heading / alt hold mode). This buys time where the airplane will continue to try to fly itself straight and level.

2) Turn the ignition key to off and remove the key.

3) Close the fuel valve (can't be done in a CTSW with the key in place, hence key removal above).

4) Pull the BRS handle.

I tell them that in the case of something catastrophic, (say a midair where we're now missing a wing and tumbling to the Earth...), to forget everything except pulling that red handle, then once the chute deploys do steps 2 & 3 above. I also make sure they understand that misuse of the BRS could kill us just as easily as not using it, and thus they should not touch that handle EVER unless I'm incapacitated or tell them to pull it.

There is nothing wrong with having them try to call for help, etc. But I fear that an untrained non-pilot passenger suddenly put in a position of PIC will *instantly* be task saturated. This could lead to freezing up and the inability to act at all if they have too much to remember.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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deltafox
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby deltafox » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:41 am

I also mention the BRS during my takeoff brief. I tell the passenger (or myself if solo) that the chute is available passing 300' (agl, which I convert to msl.)
Dave

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dstclair
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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby dstclair » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:27 am

There is an editorial over on Avweb concerning the recent Cirrus chute deployment that was captured on video. The author below is frequent contributor to the EAA magazines.
For years, I've been doing analyses of the accident database, concentrating on homebuilts. After this CAPS deployment, I got curious and repeated my analysis on the Cirrus. I compared the Cirrus accidents from 2000 on to a combined set of Glasair and Lancair homebuilts from 1998 to 2014, as well as previously-analyzed data on Cessna 172 and 210 accidents (1998-2007). I've got no dog in this hunt...I fly a single-seat, open cockpit homebuilt. I just wanted to see where the numbers came out.

The Cirrus had a much lower rate of fuel exhaustion/starvation accidents. 2.6% of Cirrus accidents involved this sort of fuel mismanagement, vs. 5.3% for the high-performance homebuilts, over 6% of Cessna 172 accidents, and over 13% of the 210s.

The rate of "pilot miscontrol" accidents for the Cirrus was higher than the high performance homebuilts or the 210s, but lower than the 172 (even when training accidents were excluded from the 172 accidents). However, this was actually proportion to pilot experience... the median total flight hours for the high performance homebuilt and Cessna 210s was at least twice that of the pilots in Cirrus accidents, and the Cessna 172 group was even lower.

One of the most arresting results was the percentage of accidents that resulted in serious injuries or fatalities after an engine failure for any reason (mechanical or pilot issues). In those cases where a reportable accident occurred (e.g., the NTSB doesn't track no-damage forced landings) 16.7% of Cirrus engine failures lead to at least one fatality or serious injury, vs. 39.3% for the Cessna 210 and 41.3% for the High Performance Homebuilts. Having the CAPS is probably a big factor, here, and no doubt improved crashworthiness of the more-modern design is a contributor as well.

As a final factor, consider: The rate of serious injuries after CAPS deployments *within the CAPS envelope* is extremely low. Imagine you're flying with your family and an emergency develops within the envelope and with enough decision time available. You can pull the CAPS...and everyone will survive. Or you can try to perform a forced landing, with the knowledge that if you aren't 100% perfect, there's a 40% chance someone you love will die.

Me, I fly a single-seat airplane with no BRS and no personal chute. Whatever happens, I'll ride it in. But no one else's lives are riding on my skills, luck, or decision-making capabilities.

-- ron wanttaja

I find conclusion very interesting on fatalities in forced landings without a chute.
dave

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Re: Pulling the Chute

Postby Merlinspop » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:37 am

I like Ron. I almost bought a FlyBaby because of his enthusiasm for the type.
- Bruce


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