E/AB buyers guide

Are you building/buying/flying an Experimental Amateur-Built (E-AB) or Experimental Light Sport (E-LSA) aircraft? Converting an S-LSA to E-LSA? Changing or adding equipment, or otherwise modifying an S-LSA? Need help with Letters of Authorization? Or maybe designing your own aircraft? This forum is the place to discuss All Things Experimental.

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Atrosa
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E/AB buyers guide

Post by Atrosa »

What should i be looking for if buying an EAB? Are there any walk away immediately items? What should i ask for before spending the money on an inspection? Is it appropriate for me to ask for the builders notes and maintenance schedule? This is so out of my comfort zone.
TimTaylor
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by TimTaylor »

How many hours do you have? Personally, I would not think about buying an airplane until I had at least 10 hours and know it's something I am capable of doing, I like it, and I want to pursue a license. Secondly, once I decided I wanted to purchase an airplane, I would fly several different makes and models until I had narrowed it down to a couple I really like. Lastly, I would look for an S-LSA before an E-LSA or EAB, if for no other reason, it might be easier to sell when and if I decide this hobby is not for me.

If I had the money to afford the airplane plus a hanger to keep it in, I would probably look for a Tecnam or Flight Design. If I had to keep it outside, then a SkyCatcher or RV12, but that's just personal choice.
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Atrosa
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by Atrosa »

I have exactly zero hours. :) I live in CT near KMMK and have vacation property in NH 8B2. I would be surprised if I hated flying. I grew up near 42B and watched the planes go in and out and always dreamed of owning my own plane. My flight school near me does not own an LSA plus the thought of spending 7-10K rentals to get hours doesn't sit well. 10-20% of the purchase price. The problem I'm weighing now is the monthly costs. Hanger and insurance. I can get a outside spot at KMMK for about $100 per month, not ideal but the hangers are full and over $200 per month. I'm not sure but I think insurance would be about 1200 per year. So not starting the engine will run me $200 per month. I have no idea what an annual costs either.

Something like this: https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

or a Arion lightning, Czech sport ect...

This is going to happen after my busy time of the year. I file statements with the SEC about in May, once the dust settles... game on. Step one: take a couple of flights to determine I like flying. Step 2: finish ground school Step 3: Buy plane to continue instruction and solo. (Any advise would be appreciated)
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Warmi
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by Warmi »

You may be too optimistic with the insurance cost - I was exactly in your spot in May 2017 - a student pilot about to be done with my training with about 40 hours under my belt - at that time I bought a Sting S4 ( almost new - 150 hours ) to finish my training in ...
My first year, the best I could find was $2100 per year for my insurance ( 100k hull ) - this year is down to $1700.

My major cost is the hangar - about $300 per month , fuel would be about the same ( $300 per month - 150 hours total time last year ) - my annual is about $800-1000 except last year it was time for the 5 year rubber replacement + 200 hours inspection which meant $5000 annual :(

There is no way around it - owning a plane, even a small one, is just damn expensive and you better really, really enjoy it , because it will cost you ... :D
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois
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drseti
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by drseti »

When you start your shopping, I'd recommend you view my EAA Webinar "how to buy a used LSA."

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4206496475001
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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TimTaylor
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by TimTaylor »

My advice is to budget $1,000 per month for your flying habit. If you can't afford that, don't buy an airplane. You won't be able to fly it and the fixed cost will eat you alive.

Also, while I hope you love flying, some people hate it. They have panic attacks or get airsick or whatever. Others just don't have the skill set or mind set to be a pilot. Again, I recommend you get at least 10 hours of flight instruction before you decide.

You said you are somewhat risk adverse. Buying an airplane you can't afford and too soon would be a tremendous risk. You don't need to rush into this.

PS: Hangers where I live are $500 per month if you could find one, which you can't.
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TimTaylor
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by TimTaylor »

Here's a spreadsheet I did a while back. You can argue about the individual numbers, but you can get an idea from this. This analysis was for a Cessna SkyCatcher flown 10 hours per month and tied down outside.
C-162.xlsx
I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.
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chicagorandy
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by chicagorandy »

Not exactly on topic, but IF you are healthy enough and possess the skills to qualify for a Private Pilot's license, I would suggest you explore that option. IF flying turns out to 'be' for you, the choices available on the used airplane market are vast, and well within the purchase budget you mention, for all metal factory built aircraft that could withstand the rigors of outdoor storage, until a hangar became available.

A wise person - I think on this website - once noted that "learning to fly is still flying'. Since you are starting out at ground zero anyway, might as well set yourself up for a lifetime pursuit of the hobby. One you have that Golden Ticket in hand, or at least have confirmed the beginnings of the passion for flight, you can then start used airplane shopping.

Mr Taylor has frequently suggested that $1000 per month budget and IMHO it is sage counsel.

Just "my" thunk on the subject on a chilly Tuesday morning in Chicago.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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drseti
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by drseti »

Quite a few of my students have bought their own planes to learn in. Generally, they wait until after their first solo to do so (in my curriculum, that usually occurs after 13 to 14 flight hours, though one youngster recently did it at 10).

As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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chicagorandy
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by chicagorandy »

I gotta say, if I get the resources through some miracle to get a Sport Pilot ticket AND plane shop? The Ercoupe 415-C sure is appealing to this old geezer..
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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ShawnM
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by ShawnM »

drseti wrote:Quite a few of my students have bought their own planes to learn in. Generally, they wait until after their first solo to do so (in my curriculum, that usually occurs after 13 to 14 flight hours, though one youngster recently did it at 10).

As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!
I did just this, I soloed at my flight school in their Remos and then when I knew it was what I wanted to do I bought my own plane and finished up my training in my own plane. Since I was still new at this there was about 5 hours of transition from a high wing to low wing that was far more pitch sensitive. There was that large upfront cost of a (used) SportCruiser since I didn't finance it but my hourly rate went way down. And learning in your own plane is priceless.

As for budgeting $1000 a month to flying, this is not accurate for everyone and costs will vary in all areas of the country so dont let this number scare you or think this is what it costs to own and fly your own plane. Could it be more, absolutely. I have a friend in South Florida who pays $685 a month just for his hangar. :shock: There are SO MANY variables in this equation and this is just what one person has determined what it'll cost them. Do your own homework and figure out what your number will be in your local area. I spend far less than $1000 a month. You'll find that a hangar will be the bulk of your monthly expense. I've seen them as low as $190 a month to as high as $685 a month.

As for you original question of buying a E/AB, or any LSA for that matter. I can't stress enough that when you find a particular make/model that you want to buy learn EVERYTHING you can about that plane and research the heck out of it. Know the plane inside and out BEFORE you even look at one so you'll know what to look for. Download all the manuals and service bulletins from the manufacturer. Read them. Does this specific plane have an online forum for its owners? Like the RV, CT or SportCruiser? Join it and learn. Get a pre-buy inspection from a LSRM who has specific knowledge of that plane and not an A&P (nothing against you A&P's at all). If you were buying a certified plane then of course use an A&P and not a LSRM. If buying a E/AB talk to the builder if you can. Did he/she do it alone? Was there factory assistance? Again, YOUR knowledge of the plane in question is your best weapon when it comes to buying a plane. Do not rely solely on the advice or recommendation of another individual just because you are paying them for that advice. And of course, dont use a mechanic that is recommended by anyone selling you a plane, get an outside, independent and unbiased mechanic to give you a fresh look at the plane from his prospective.

Buying a plane is not for the faint at heart and is time consuming. It can take weeks to gather all the data you need to make an informed decision. This is not where you want to impulse buy. :mrgreen:

As I stated earlier I own a 2007 SportCruiser that I bought used in 2013. And I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do enough homework into the COMPANY when I bought it. I fell in love with the plane and still love it today. The company, that's another story. As I've stated many times I love my plane but hate the company behind it. My advice, know what you are buying.
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smutny
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by smutny »

To your original question about E-AB pre-buys, there is no real black and white answer. Some of them are built to a quality that far exceeds what factories put out, and some are barely hanging on. Each airplane, regardless if it's E-AB, ELSA, SLSA or TC, needs to be looked at closely.

My Cub, which I bought from a friend without a pre-buy, needed a number of items replaced. Incorrect safety wire, incorrect bolts and fasteners, it was surprising to me it passed three annuals since it was restored. A Pitts I bought had a number of issues as well that required pulling the airplane apart a week after it's condition inspection got signed off. So it doesn't matter what the certification of the airplane is, what matters is how it was maintained.

Oh, and to the cost of flying... For me, flying today costs exactly as much as it did when I started in the 1980's.

Everything I got.

But I'll gladly spend it on aviation as opposed to new cars, the biggest satellite package, overseas trips, etc. It's all about choices.
John Smutny
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Normandy Aircraft @ S50
TimTaylor
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by TimTaylor »

Look at my spreadsheet. I find a hard time seeing how aircraft ownership can be much less than $1,000 per month, especially if you have a hanger. Some people like to omit depreciation, engine reserve, and opportunity cost, but since the OP is an accountant, I doubt he will make that mistake. Money is not free regardless of how wealthy you are. It isn't unheard of to buy an airplane then not be able to afford to fly it. My point is, at some point the hourly cost is so high, you're much better off the rent.
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3Dreaming
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by 3Dreaming »

I'm sitting in Tennessee waiting on a part to test fly an airplane. Cost is very geographical, and dependant on what you are flying. At my airport with the airplane I'm waiting to test fly, you would have to spend $750 per month in fuel to reach the $1000 per month mark. Figure in the loan payment for 3 years and you still have $400 to spend on fuel per month. That includes hangar, insurance, and $1000 for a annual inspection.
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ShawnM
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Re: E/AB buyers guide

Post by ShawnM »

3Dreaming wrote:I'm sitting in Tennessee waiting on a part to test fly an airplane. Cost is very geographical, and dependant on what you are flying. At my airport with the airplane I'm waiting to test fly, you would have to spend $750 per month in fuel to reach the $1000 per month mark. Figure in the loan payment for 3 years and you still have $400 to spend on fuel per month. That includes hangar, insurance, and $1000 for a annual inspection.
That's exactly my point, there are SO MANY factors involved the calculation of the monthly expense of owning and flying an aircraft that there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all budget. It simply does not apply to every scenario. Telling everyone that comes on here that you need a $1000 monthly budget to own and fly a plane is simply not accurate and may scare people away from GA, is that what we want? I understand that this may be Tim's scenario and what he's calculated but it's simply not the same for everyone.
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