Cost of ownership

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Merlinspop
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby Merlinspop » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:00 pm

"Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in conventional gasoline."
- EPA memorandum from back in the days they were pushing for MTBE instead of ethanol to oxygenate gas.
- Bruce

Jack Tyler
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby Jack Tyler » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:01 am

"And I will repeat, water in fuel is a problem for ALL fuels."
Completely agree.

"Phase separation is no larger an issue than condensation in 100LL or Jet A."
That doesn't seem to make sense, grammatically or chemically. Do you mean to say condensation - as a cause of phase separation - is of equal concern for all fuels? That would be incorrect.

Surely we can all agree on these facts: All fuels are exposed to the same risks of water absorption as they move from refinery tanks to transport tanks to wholesale/retail distribution tanks and, eventually, where it sits in our a/c tanks. All these tanks can incrementally collect small deposits of water over time for a variety of reasons. The relevant point for E10 users is that the risk of phase separation for all fuels is not the same. That's because anhydrous alcohol (the 'E' in E10) has up to 50 times more water absorption tendency than those other fuels, which means it has a much higher tendency to absorb those small amounts of water as it moves thru the distribution system and then lies in our a/c tanks. Thus, phase separation of much greater concern to the E10 user, whether s/he flies a plane for which the manufacturer has approved the use of E10 or not.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

CTLSi
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CTLSi » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:47 am

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CharlieTango
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CharlieTango » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:59 am

CTLSi wrote:...The real water issue is making sure you check for water every single time you preflight. If you do that, and find some, it will be drained at the time you sample. If you see a lot of water, more than a couple of ounces, then you should not fly that aircraft at all until the tanks have been drained, and the fuel system checked...


If your fuel is ethanol free then a little water is no big deal but if you have ethanol and find water than your fuel is super-saturated. Ethanol is a mixed blessing in my dry climate, it will absorb the small amounts of moisture that I am exposed to but the other side of the coin is the water is then hidden, if I am slowly accumulating moisture there is no sign until phase separation.

Hangars don't protect you from condensation because the relative humidity in your hangar will equalize with the outside humidity.

CTLSi
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CTLSi » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:10 pm

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3Dreaming
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:17 pm

The bigger problem if you have phase separation is the water will also take the ethanol out of the fuel too. By the time the ethanol is that saturated the octane of the fuel is likely below the requirements for the engine.

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CharlieTango
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CharlieTango » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:28 pm

If you have a small amount of phase separation, even if its less than an ounce your fuel is saturated and if you choose to fly you risk climbing to colder temperatures and realizing more and more separation. Not only will you be low octane but the water will not be settled at low points.

You are correct that an insulated / heated hangar can prevent condensation in cold climates, but that's not what you said. Not so sure about Florida.

The other mogas issue that concerns me is vapor lock, in California's mogas has its vapor pressure seasonally adjusted.

Torque
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby Torque » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:28 am

3Dreaming wrote:The bigger problem if you have phase separation is the water will also take the ethanol out of the fuel too. By the time the ethanol is that saturated the octane of the fuel is likely below the requirements for the engine.



Some ultralight folks wash their fuel. I tried to explain that they where lowering the octane by doing this. What they do is take a 50 gallon drum. Put 20 gallons of water in it. Then put in another 20 gallons of gas and mix. Let it settle then pull off all the fuel and leave all water behind.

CTLSi
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CTLSi » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:55 am

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CharlieTango
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CharlieTango » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:06 pm

EASA, the European Aviation Safety Agency, has issued a renewed warning titled SIB 2007-01R1, “Use of Automotive Gasoline (Mogas) containing Bio-Ethanol”, which can be found here. This EASA Safety Information Bulletin contains the following:

The unauthorised use of fuel containing methanol or ethanol in aircraft can cause the following problems, potentially resulting in engine in-flight shut downs or fires, due to leakages:

Increased risk for vapour lock due to different volatility.
Incompatibility with several materials in the fuel system.
Phase separation into an alcohol-rich aqueous phase and an alcohol-poor hydrocarbon phase when the fuel is cooled (e.g. at high altitude) and not free of water.

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2011 ... -in-mogas/

3Dreaming
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:50 pm

CTLSi wrote:Phase Separation is a non issue - its like worrying that your prop is going to delaminate every other flight.

If you want proof, look at autos. They have been burning E10 fuel for 30 years and these cars and trucks sit in every kind of extreme weather thre is, including Alaska. No one ever hears about the problem.

If you hangar your plane, as I do, and you use your gas in less than 90 days, you will never see the problem, or even come close to it.

The bigger problem by far is water GETTING INTO the tanks from the outside. Tie downs, cold weather condensation, even flying through driving rain could pose that issue.


Unlike airplanes, when a car or truck quits it pulls over to the side of the road and you hear nothing about it.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:57 pm

Reminds me of the question, "Why do cars always seem to stall out on railroad tracks?"

The answer is that, in fact, cars stall out everywhere. But you only read about it when it happens on the railroad tracks!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

CTLSi
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CTLSi » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:20 pm

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby Nomore767 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:28 pm

"Its the future of GA aviation. Carbon fiber, fuel injection, solid state ignitions, digital cockpits and EMS, paperless cockpit, graphical weather in the cockpit, GPS, AOA indicators, collision avoidance and autopilots. And an all plane BRS parachute."

Totally awesome! With all that state of the art technology....what could POSSIBLY go wrong? So, why would you ever need the BRS parachute?

My 1940 De Havilland DH82A Tiger Moth had an 'airspeed indicator' mounted on the left wing strut, a compass, altimeter, and rpm. Okay, okay...I used a portable GPS...but the plane is still flying in Europe 73 years later. Go figure.

CTLSi
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Re: Cost of ownership

Postby CTLSi » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:32 pm

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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