E-AB Question

Are you building/buying/flying an Experimental Amateur-Built (E-AB) or Experimental Light Sport (E-LSA) aircraft? Converting an S-LSA to E-LSA? Changing or adding equipment, or otherwise modifying an S-LSA? Need help with Letters of Authorization? Or maybe designing your own aircraft? This forum is the place to discuss All Things Experimental.

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Warmi
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby Warmi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 pm

TimTaylor wrote:I don't think any intelligent pilot is going to worry about a violation of FAR's in any emergency. However, when the emergency has been successfully dealt with, there may be consequences for the pilot depending on what damages he has caused to people or property on the ground. That is only reasonable. No reasonable thinking person would think a pilot certificate somehow allows you to damage others with immunity, regardless of the cause.


Of course, one can be a subject to some kind of a civil action if they cause harm but that’s a separate issue and it is between both parties to settle ( or more likely their insurance companies ) - I think we are talking here about FAA coming down on the pilot with some additional violations etc ..
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:36 pm

I stand by my post. If you cause harm or damage to anyone while operating an aircraft, I maintain you are and should be subject to action by the FAA. That doesn't mean you will be cited, but I don't think it is some sort of overreach if you are. Others can and will disagree, especially those with Libertarian beliefs. This is my opinion. I don't really care who agrees or disagrees with me on this.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby Wm.Ince » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:53 am

TimTaylor wrote:I stand by my post. If you cause harm or damage to anyone while operating an aircraft, I maintain you are and should be subject to action by the FAA. That doesn't mean you will be cited, but I don't think it is some sort of overreach if you are. Others can and will disagree, especially those with Libertarian beliefs. This is my opinion. I don't really care who agrees or disagrees with me on this.
Why are you referencing politics here? Why should that somehow make a difference?
TimTaylor wrote:
MrMorden wrote:You swould expect to get violated for a mechanical failure?
Yes, if I land on a highway, I expect a violation. I may not get one, but if I do, I won't be surprised, especially if I cause harm or damage to someone else or property.
You never did answer this question, so I will ask it again.
During an emergency, if you are exercising your emergency authority, as a pilot in command, what would the violation be for?
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby drseti » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:19 am

Why is nobody discussing the best option for an emergency landing? In over half a century of flying, I've survived four declared inflight emergencies. In all four cases, I put the plane down on a... runway. Altitude (lots of it) was my friend. And situational awareness (where is the nearest runway? Can I make it there?) is vital.

Of course, you should always have a Plan B. Depending on where you are, that might be a field, a road, or something less desirable.

As for violations, I know of none that has ever been issued for exercising one's PIC authority under FAR 91.3(b).
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby ShawnM » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 am

drseti wrote:Why is nobody discussing the best option for an emergency landing? In over half a century of flying, I've survived four declared inflight emergencies. In all four cases, I put the plane down on a... runway. Altitude (lots of it) was my friend. And situational awareness (where is the nearest runway? Can I make it there?) is vital.

Of course, you should always have a Plan B. Depending on where you are, that might be a field, a road, or something less desirable.

As for violations, I know of none that has ever been issued for exercising one's PIC authority under FAR 91.3(b).


I was thinking of this when I was typing my last response. The Florida sectional is littered with airports all over the place and with enough altitude you'll make it to one if not two. :mrgreen: Last time I checked Florida has the highest count in the country for the number of airports, this is reassuring to me in an emergency situation. I think we'd all prefer a runway over ANYWHERE else but as you said, have a "plan b" if that's not an option.

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Re: E-AB Question

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:51 am

drseti wrote:Why is nobody discussing the best option for an emergency landing? In over half a century of flying, I've survived four declared inflight emergencies. In all four cases, I put the plane down on a... runway. Altitude (lots of it) was my friend. And situational awareness (where is the nearest runway? Can I make it there?) is vital.

Of course, you should always have a Plan B. Depending on where you are, that might be a field, a road, or something less desirable.

As for violations, I know of none that has ever been issued for exercising one's PIC authority under FAR 91.3(b).


I was flying with a student who had started training elsewhere. Our airport has crossing runways. I did a simulated power failure just as he was turning downwind. He immediately turned away from the airport looking for a field to land in. I had to scratch my head. All of his emergency training had been to find a field to land in, so that was what he was going to do. After a little discussion I think he decided that there are more options than finding a field, like a perfectly good airport.

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Re: E-AB Question

Postby MrMorden » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:59 am

TimTaylor wrote:I don't think any intelligent pilot is going to worry about a violation of FAR's in any emergency. However, when the emergency has been successfully dealt with, there may be consequences for the pilot depending on what damages he has caused to people or property on the ground. That is only reasonable. No reasonable thinking person would think a pilot certificate somehow allows you to damage others with immunity, regardless of the cause.


I would of course expect restitution to be required for damages. But that should be between the persons or property owners, the pilot, and the courts if necessary. The FAA shouldn't be involved.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby MrMorden » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:06 am

drseti wrote:Why is nobody discussing the best option for an emergency landing? In over half a century of flying, I've survived four declared inflight emergencies. In all four cases, I put the plane down on a... runway. Altitude (lots of it) was my friend. And situational awareness (where is the nearest runway? Can I make it there?) is vital.


The scenario discussed was that a road or other area close to private property was the best landing option. Obviously if there's a convenient runway, that makes decision making much easier! :lol:

BTW using Garmin Pilot, it constantly calculates a glide distance ring based on altitude, wind, the input glide ratio of the airplane, etc. I was descending through 8000ft the other day and the ring showed an airport 12nm away that it said I should be able to make. I set best glide and pointed at it. I broke off at 1nm from the runway, but if anything I was high and would have made it easily. Tools like that can really help the adrenaline-addled pilot determine what his/her options really are in a situation like that.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby MrMorden » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:09 am

TimTaylor wrote:I don't really care who agrees or disagrees with me on this.


Why even engage in the conversation if your opinion is set in stone, and you don't care at all what anybody else thinks?
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am

ShawnM wrote:The Florida sectional is littered with airports all over the place and with enough altitude you'll make it to one if not two. :mrgreen: Last time I checked Florida has the highest count in the country for the number of airports, this is reassuring to me in an emergency situation.


Most of my flying career was based in S FL, so no argument there.

But things are very different ‘round these here parts:

Image

Copperhill Airport is the near vertical line next to the “G” in “Google”. And I mostly fly north from there.

Once the few green fields are behind me, options are sorely limited. Any stretch of unobstructed road would at least get some consideration.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby MrMorden » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:20 am

FastEddieB wrote:Once the few green fields are behind me, options are sorely limited. Any stretch of unobstructed road would at least get some consideration.


That kind of area is a good argument for a ballistic parachute. Is it an option on the Sky Arrow?
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:36 am

MrMorden wrote:
That kind of area is a good argument for a ballistic parachute. Is it an option on the Sky Arrow?


Not that I’m aware of. Weight would be an issue, plus locating the shrouds so as not to get entangled in the pusher prop could be problematical.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby Wm.Ince » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:56 pm

TimTaylor wrote:I stand by my post. If you cause harm or damage to anyone while operating an aircraft, I maintain you are and should be subject to action by the FAA. That doesn't mean you will be cited, but I don't think it is some sort of overreach if you are. Others can and will disagree, especially those with Libertarian beliefs. This is my opinion. I don't really care who agrees or disagrees with me on this.
Why are you referencing politics here? Why should that somehow make a difference?
TimTaylor wrote:
MrMorden wrote:You would expect to get violated for a mechanical failure?
Yes, if I land on a highway, I expect a violation. I may not get one, but if I do, I won't be surprised, especially if I cause harm or damage to someone else or property.

You never did answer this question, so I will ask it again.
During an emergency, if you are exercising your emergency authority, as a pilot in command, what would the violation be for?
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CTSW (E-LSA)
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

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Re: E-AB Question

Postby Wm.Ince » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Warmi wrote:Of course, one can be a subject to some kind of a civil action if they cause harm but that’s a separate issue and it is between both parties to settle ( or more likely their insurance companies ) - I think we are talking here about FAA coming down on the pilot with some additional violations etc ..

Concur.
"Violations?" keep popping up here, but nobody yet . . . has identified what specific "violation" would be cited.
If I feared getting 'violated" every time I flew, I think it would be time to permanently hang up the headset.
Thank goodness it hasn't come down to that yet.
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Re: E-AB Question

Postby ShawnM » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:05 pm

FastEddieB wrote:Most of my flying career was based in S FL, so no argument there.

But things are very different ‘round these here parts:

Image

Copperhill Airport is the near vertical line next to the “G” in “Google”. And I mostly fly north from there.

Once the few green fields are behind me, options are sorely limited. Any stretch of unobstructed road would at least get some consideration.


OMG, the pucker factor went up for me just sitting at my desk. :mrgreen:

Fly safe and remember, altitude is your friend, especially in that sea of green.


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