Who is Right?

Jason spent 24 years as an air traffic controller at Los Angeles Center, and recently moved east to work in DC in the Airspace office as an air traffic subject matter expert. He is a Sport Pilot, owns a Rans S12XL E-LSA, and got his >87 knot endorsement so he can rent a C162. He's here to answer your questions about ATC procedures and rules, in a strictly unofficial capacity.

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HAPPYDAN
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Who is Right?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:14 am

While brushing up on knowledge test questions, I ran across an interesting dilemma. Two top-notch sources have different answers for the same question. Since I have never flown from a towered airport with intersecting runways, my real-life solution would be to ask Ground control for clarification or progressive taxi assistance. But I ask in hopes someone knows the FAA correct answer, in case this turns up on the PPL KT.

PLT502
If instructed by Ground Control to taxi to Runway 9, the pilot may proceed

A - via taxiways and across runways to, but not onto, Runway 9.
B - to the next intersecting runway where further clearance is required.
C - via taxiways and across runways to Runway 9, where an immediate takeoff may be made.

The reference is AIM 4-3-18, which indicates GC would provide specific instructions. This is not clarified by the question, though.
C is obviously wrong. Jeppesen says the answer is A. King Schools says the answer B. So, who's right?

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drseti
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:49 am

I agree with King, although I understand where Jepp's wrong answer comes from. For a long time, a clearance of "taxi to" a specific runway allowed one to cross intervening runways, unless explicitly told to hold short of them. In response to numerous runway incursions, ATC started a few years ago requiring the opposite. That is, you now require explicit instructions to cross a runway, rather than instructions to hold short of it.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
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drseti
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:54 am

In the real world, I would leave nothing to chance. I always taxi up to the hold-short line, stop, and if nothing is said, then ask "am I cleared to cross Runway XX?" Then, even if cleared, I look both ways before proceeding.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

HAPPYDAN
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:45 am

Thanks much. It's logical to assume erring on the side of safety would present fewer problems. But who's saying all of the knowledge test questions are logical? :lol:

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drseti
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:01 am

They're not, Dan (which is why the required passing score is only 70%).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Merlinspop
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby Merlinspop » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Ugggh. Not enough clarity in the question and answers that are too open to interpretation. Too many are like that.

I don't like "A" because as stated, Ground must now issue an explicit clearance to cross a runway (even a closed one). And... they can not clear you to cross multiple runways (unless they are closely spaced). So "A" has two strikes because it doesn't specify a clearance to cross a runway, AND it says "runways".

I don't really like "B" all that much either, because it doesn't say how to taxi to the runway and doesn't specify "hold short" but doesn't say cross either. But it's less wrong than "A" and definitely "C".
- Bruce

TimTaylor
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:05 pm

I had this situation yesterday at KGMU. He said, taxi to runway 19 via A3 left on A, CLEARED TO CROSS RUNWAY 10-28. Had he not said cleared to cross 10-28, I would have stopped short. Since he said cleared to cross and I read back his instructions correctly, I crossed without stopping or asking, just looking.
By reference, everything contained in this link is included in every post I make on Sport Pilot Talk.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... apterI.tpl

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drseti
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:20 pm

Although your action was entirely proper, Tim, I've had enough close calls that I have become even more cautious. I would have read back the taxi clearance, stopped completely but briefly at the 10-28 hold line, looked both ways, and then crossed.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

TimTaylor
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:00 pm

Since I was overtly cleared to cross, I would have only stopped if I could not clearly see in both directions for landing traffic or if I was unsure for some reason. I have asked before when I wasn't sure, but usually ask before I get there and don't stop.
By reference, everything contained in this link is included in every post I make on Sport Pilot Talk.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... apterI.tpl

pjdavis
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby pjdavis » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:53 pm

As a student at a controlled airport (KLNS) I may have become known by both ground and tower....I would have gone with B. I would much rather irritate them tell me to keep moving than having ask me Why I didn't listen...I am trying to change their 1st, 2nd and 3rd impression of me...LOL

PJ

Merlinspop
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Re: Who is Right?

Postby Merlinspop » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:01 am

Slightly detouring the tread.... If it takes an amount of time to get the point of crossing a runway, even if cleared, do most people normally double check with Ground, just in case an arrival showed up in the meantime? If so, what amount of time, as a rule of thumb, would you use? The scenario that comes into my mind is a non-radar Class D where it wouldn't take a whole lot of time for an arriving aircraft to check in with tower and be in the pattern (or straight in).
- Bruce


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