Looks like CTLS is the "official" name. Interesting that he uses the term "recreational pilots".
Thanks.
Tom
edit: didn't see prior photo
08 CTLS
Moderator: drseti
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Flight Design Introduces Third Generation LSA
Mon, 10 Dec '07
"All-New" CTLS Reveals Many Upgraded Features
How time flies... Barely eleven years after the first CT entered production in June 1997, the Flight Design Team is introducing their latest bird... the new 'CTLS.' Similar to the preceding CT models, the changes are cosiderable since the new LS model was designed to address customer requests from the last two years.
Despite the addition of numerous equipment items the CTLS is just 5-7 lbs heavier than an Advanced CTSW with the same equipment.
"Our LS offers the utmost in space, comfort, performance and ease of flying so that less experienced pilots can fly it easily," said Matthias Betsch, CEO of Flight Design GmbH. The aerodynamic qualities of the CTLS were completely reworked using full-size wind tunnel tests and flight evaluations employing the newest data recording equipment.
"With the LS, Flight Design's team achieved an easier handling, easier to fly airplane with improved performance," reported U.S. importer Tom Peghiny after flying a prototype. "The new landing gear offers not only energy absorbing characteristics, but has a high level of dampening to reduce rebound after touchdown."
In the LS interior, the seats have been redesigned and the noise level reduced to underline the long range capability of the CTLS. The cabin has been resculpted to add volume and light. The engine installation and fuel system have been reworked according newest market experience and know how. New construction materials have improved durability and outside weather resilience. As corporate policy, Flight Design never presents a new airplane until it is fully certified and ready for delivery.
"The Flight Design team has worked in close cooperation with its partners around the world for two years on the concept, development, testing and certification of the CTLS," explained Oliver Reinhardt, Technical Director of Flight Design. The CTLS will be debuted at the 2008 Sebring Expo in Florida, USA on January 17th and at similar dates in different countries around the world. The CTLS will be at that time certified as a Special Light-Sport Aircraft fully meeting ASTM standards and the German BFU/LTF-UL rule.
"Serial production of the CTLS started in mid-November 2007 and Flight Design began accepting 2008 orders from its worldwide representatives," said Betsch. "Starting in January 2008 demonstrator airplanes will be available in many countries."
Augmented not replaced, the CTSW model will be continuously built in the existing configuration. "We especially believe the extremely lightweight CTSW Classic Light model will prove very popular in the future," added Betsch.
Flight Design is a 21-year-old air sport products producer based in Germany. More than 1,000 of its aircraft are flying in 25 countries. One of the first aircraft certified under the American ASTM standards, in 2005, the CT ("composite technology") is currently the best-selling LSA in America.
FMI: www.flightdesign.com, www.flightdesignusa.com/
Mon, 10 Dec '07
"All-New" CTLS Reveals Many Upgraded Features
How time flies... Barely eleven years after the first CT entered production in June 1997, the Flight Design Team is introducing their latest bird... the new 'CTLS.' Similar to the preceding CT models, the changes are cosiderable since the new LS model was designed to address customer requests from the last two years.
Despite the addition of numerous equipment items the CTLS is just 5-7 lbs heavier than an Advanced CTSW with the same equipment.
"Our LS offers the utmost in space, comfort, performance and ease of flying so that less experienced pilots can fly it easily," said Matthias Betsch, CEO of Flight Design GmbH. The aerodynamic qualities of the CTLS were completely reworked using full-size wind tunnel tests and flight evaluations employing the newest data recording equipment.
"With the LS, Flight Design's team achieved an easier handling, easier to fly airplane with improved performance," reported U.S. importer Tom Peghiny after flying a prototype. "The new landing gear offers not only energy absorbing characteristics, but has a high level of dampening to reduce rebound after touchdown."
In the LS interior, the seats have been redesigned and the noise level reduced to underline the long range capability of the CTLS. The cabin has been resculpted to add volume and light. The engine installation and fuel system have been reworked according newest market experience and know how. New construction materials have improved durability and outside weather resilience. As corporate policy, Flight Design never presents a new airplane until it is fully certified and ready for delivery.
"The Flight Design team has worked in close cooperation with its partners around the world for two years on the concept, development, testing and certification of the CTLS," explained Oliver Reinhardt, Technical Director of Flight Design. The CTLS will be debuted at the 2008 Sebring Expo in Florida, USA on January 17th and at similar dates in different countries around the world. The CTLS will be at that time certified as a Special Light-Sport Aircraft fully meeting ASTM standards and the German BFU/LTF-UL rule.
"Serial production of the CTLS started in mid-November 2007 and Flight Design began accepting 2008 orders from its worldwide representatives," said Betsch. "Starting in January 2008 demonstrator airplanes will be available in many countries."
Augmented not replaced, the CTSW model will be continuously built in the existing configuration. "We especially believe the extremely lightweight CTSW Classic Light model will prove very popular in the future," added Betsch.
Flight Design is a 21-year-old air sport products producer based in Germany. More than 1,000 of its aircraft are flying in 25 countries. One of the first aircraft certified under the American ASTM standards, in 2005, the CT ("composite technology") is currently the best-selling LSA in America.
FMI: www.flightdesign.com, www.flightdesignusa.com/
I guess they have been listening to the market. Many of the changes they are making are an absolute necessity. The fuel system, landing gear and flight characteristics are major problems necessitating major improvements. I will be interested to see if they developed a better airplane.
I wonder what the useful load comment indicates. My understanding/experience is that a well equiped CTSW has a far less useful load than published. Does that mean a limited equiped CTLS will have even less useful load?
I also heard somewhere that this was going to be a metal plane. Is that right?
I wonder what the useful load comment indicates. My understanding/experience is that a well equiped CTSW has a far less useful load than published. Does that mean a limited equiped CTLS will have even less useful load?
I also heard somewhere that this was going to be a metal plane. Is that right?
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
the ctls is carbon fiber and kevlar like the ctsw.
to me the ctsw's flight characteristics are delightful. perhaps by providing easier to fly designs as well the ctsw's characteristics become a preference thing as oppose to your thinking "...flight characteristics are major problems necessitating major improvements"
isn't ok if the ctsw isn't a great trainer and isn't for every one?
to me the ctsw's flight characteristics are delightful. perhaps by providing easier to fly designs as well the ctsw's characteristics become a preference thing as oppose to your thinking "...flight characteristics are major problems necessitating major improvements"
isn't ok if the ctsw isn't a great trainer and isn't for every one?
You gotta be kidding....
tadel001
Sometimes I wonder where you folks dream this stuff up. The CTsw is by far the best selling LSA in this country and for a reason - it's a great airplane...period.
Why on gods green earth would a plane sell this well and the owners love it so much if it had "major problems" and "absolute necessity changes"?
I'm sorry but you don't have a clue - and that's they only way I can put it. I and many, many others fly this plane often and certainly don't find the the stuff you've mentioned to be a problem as you make it sound.
Now - what is the CTLS....it's a trainer because for some of the pilots out there the CTsw is to much. THAT'S THE TRUTH - what you write is not!
I will be happy to pay for your airfare to come to our fly-in in May in McMinnville Oregon to see for yourself.
You can contact me at www.ctflyer.com
Roger
I guess they have been listening to the market. Many of the changes they are making are an absolute necessity. The fuel system, landing gear and flight characteristics are major problems necessitating major improvements. I will be interested to see if they developed a better airplane.
Sometimes I wonder where you folks dream this stuff up. The CTsw is by far the best selling LSA in this country and for a reason - it's a great airplane...period.
Why on gods green earth would a plane sell this well and the owners love it so much if it had "major problems" and "absolute necessity changes"?
I'm sorry but you don't have a clue - and that's they only way I can put it. I and many, many others fly this plane often and certainly don't find the the stuff you've mentioned to be a problem as you make it sound.
Now - what is the CTLS....it's a trainer because for some of the pilots out there the CTsw is to much. THAT'S THE TRUTH - what you write is not!
I will be happy to pay for your airfare to come to our fly-in in May in McMinnville Oregon to see for yourself.
You can contact me at www.ctflyer.com
Roger
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
roger,
tadel001 isn't clueless, he's a reputable guy working at a reputable and successful lsa dealer/school.
like we have seen on the west coast as well, this type of operation hsas a trainer mentality. if everyone doesn't do reasonably well in the design it is more work for the lsa instructor.
i hope he takes you up on your offer, i look foward to your fly-in next year.
and you area 100% right it is a great design, for me it redlines the fun meter.
tadel001 isn't clueless, he's a reputable guy working at a reputable and successful lsa dealer/school.
like we have seen on the west coast as well, this type of operation hsas a trainer mentality. if everyone doesn't do reasonably well in the design it is more work for the lsa instructor.
i hope he takes you up on your offer, i look foward to your fly-in next year.
and you area 100% right it is a great design, for me it redlines the fun meter.
Maybe a little harsh...
Maybe I'm being a little harsh Charlie Tango but no one has ever built a perfect airplane and never well...you'll always be able to chastise something.
The CT is not a perfect airplane either but I see and talk to many of the over two hundred owners of the CTsw in this country and by far and away the majority of us love our airplanes and understand how to deal with what a slight few might feel are short comings.
The net can be dangerous where a one or two percent minority can mislead the masses - I don't like that.
I've had mine for seven or eight months...130 plus hours and every pilot that's ever gone for a ride has been impressed. It's just hard for me to stand by and see someone be critical without pointing out the large lists of positives as well.
If he behaves I'll give him a place to stay as well!!!!
Roger H
The CT is not a perfect airplane either but I see and talk to many of the over two hundred owners of the CTsw in this country and by far and away the majority of us love our airplanes and understand how to deal with what a slight few might feel are short comings.
The net can be dangerous where a one or two percent minority can mislead the masses - I don't like that.
I've had mine for seven or eight months...130 plus hours and every pilot that's ever gone for a ride has been impressed. It's just hard for me to stand by and see someone be critical without pointing out the large lists of positives as well.
If he behaves I'll give him a place to stay as well!!!!
Roger H
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
ok tadel001,
the offer is getting good, air fair and lodging to/in mcminville, and to go flying with us in our ctsw's and ctls's.
hard to pass up?
roger is a stand up guy and good for his offer.
if you come and have a good time you wont' have much crow to eat.
seriously, what you would discover is that the ctsw has a niche that it fulfills quite well. well enough in fact to be the market leader.
i too can be frustrated with the demands, my girfriend can't fly a stabilized approach. other pilots sometimes sturggle.
what you are missing is the fact that as you increase performance you increase demand on the pilot. this might seem like a bad thing to an instructor but a good thing to an owner that is trying to get the most out of his lsa.
the offer is getting good, air fair and lodging to/in mcminville, and to go flying with us in our ctsw's and ctls's.
hard to pass up?
roger is a stand up guy and good for his offer.
if you come and have a good time you wont' have much crow to eat.
seriously, what you would discover is that the ctsw has a niche that it fulfills quite well. well enough in fact to be the market leader.
i too can be frustrated with the demands, my girfriend can't fly a stabilized approach. other pilots sometimes sturggle.
what you are missing is the fact that as you increase performance you increase demand on the pilot. this might seem like a bad thing to an instructor but a good thing to an owner that is trying to get the most out of his lsa.
I wouldn't exactly say I am clueless. I did have 06' CTSW for about 8 months. It recently sold. I would love to come to Oregon. I was in West Idaho 2 months ago and loved the Northwest. Good people and amazing land.
As for my comments on the CT. I do think it needed some significant changes to be a suitable plane for the novice pilot. The plane was sold to me as a trainer/easy LSA to fly. That is not the case. CharlieTango is right...my view is aimed more at the training market. I am CFI (7 years), been flying for 17 years, and prior to the LSA movement most of my time was in a C-210 and C-182RG. Now I prefer to fly light aircraft. I find them to be a lot more fun.
Roger, I think it is fair to say the changes were necessary to make the plane easier and safer to fly...why else would they have made the changes? The changes they made were good changes. Not useless modifications.
I appreciate the fact that you may disagree with my opinions You are definitely not the first person
. I am very glad that you are happy with your CT. In the end...my goal is to promote LSA.
Out of curiosity, have you/did you experience these things with your CT:
1) Stiff lateral controls? Far stiffer than the elevator?
2) Boom or tail root from water soaking the foam core?
3) Any landing gear issues?
Also, do you know:
1) Did they make the seats easier to adjust?
2) Did they adjust the heat so it doesn't come out of one hole near the pilot's right foot?
3) Did they go to all metal, that would take care of the foam root...
Thanks
As for my comments on the CT. I do think it needed some significant changes to be a suitable plane for the novice pilot. The plane was sold to me as a trainer/easy LSA to fly. That is not the case. CharlieTango is right...my view is aimed more at the training market. I am CFI (7 years), been flying for 17 years, and prior to the LSA movement most of my time was in a C-210 and C-182RG. Now I prefer to fly light aircraft. I find them to be a lot more fun.
Roger, I think it is fair to say the changes were necessary to make the plane easier and safer to fly...why else would they have made the changes? The changes they made were good changes. Not useless modifications.
I appreciate the fact that you may disagree with my opinions You are definitely not the first person
. I am very glad that you are happy with your CT. In the end...my goal is to promote LSA. Out of curiosity, have you/did you experience these things with your CT:
1) Stiff lateral controls? Far stiffer than the elevator?
2) Boom or tail root from water soaking the foam core?
3) Any landing gear issues?
Also, do you know:
1) Did they make the seats easier to adjust?
2) Did they adjust the heat so it doesn't come out of one hole near the pilot's right foot?
3) Did they go to all metal, that would take care of the foam root...
Thanks
Does the LS have a stall horn?
If not .... WHY? Most CT accidents were due to stall or too slow in the flare. A cessna Kazoo is pretty cheap to copy with no drag.
Probably the fuel feed thing was fixed with the addition of a header tank. you could not keep both tanks un ported for long enough to drain a 1 or 2 gallon header.
Looks like same fuselage molds to me. same vertical tail and same ventral fin. Why change production molds.
Here's what changes I see from the photos. Just guessing here but till we see one in person.
Different baggage shelf.
different wing tips
added aft windows
main gear leg change (less parts and probably made in house now)
same seats with different cushions
fairing change to eliminate stick bump
Here's what I would like to see if I were to buy one.
Probably different gearing on the stick and elevator to make the stabilator stiffer and ailerons lighter. More aileron differential for less adverse yaw.
different stabilator.
No flaperons. Replaced with NASA droop leading edge like Cirrus or 70's Cessna singles
outside door handles.
There will be a lot of changes to wiring, plumbing to accomodate avionics upgrades.
The baggage change should make that area stiffer. Can't tell from the photos if the BRS exits in the same spot. Probably does.
I wonder if then nose gear has a oil shock of some kind now?
This will probably turn out to be the airplane we were expecting in 05.
If not .... WHY? Most CT accidents were due to stall or too slow in the flare. A cessna Kazoo is pretty cheap to copy with no drag.
Probably the fuel feed thing was fixed with the addition of a header tank. you could not keep both tanks un ported for long enough to drain a 1 or 2 gallon header.
Looks like same fuselage molds to me. same vertical tail and same ventral fin. Why change production molds.
Here's what changes I see from the photos. Just guessing here but till we see one in person.
Different baggage shelf.
different wing tips
added aft windows
main gear leg change (less parts and probably made in house now)
same seats with different cushions
fairing change to eliminate stick bump
Here's what I would like to see if I were to buy one.
Probably different gearing on the stick and elevator to make the stabilator stiffer and ailerons lighter. More aileron differential for less adverse yaw.
different stabilator.
No flaperons. Replaced with NASA droop leading edge like Cirrus or 70's Cessna singles
outside door handles.
There will be a lot of changes to wiring, plumbing to accomodate avionics upgrades.
The baggage change should make that area stiffer. Can't tell from the photos if the BRS exits in the same spot. Probably does.
I wonder if then nose gear has a oil shock of some kind now?
This will probably turn out to be the airplane we were expecting in 05.
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
1) my stick forces are both light and balanced in feel. for some the flaperon return springs are wierd but feels right to me.tadel001 wrote:...
Out of curiosity, have you/did you experience these things with your CT:
1) Stiff lateral controls? Far stiffer than the elevator?
2) Boom or tail root from water soaking the foam core?
3) Any landing gear issues?
Also, do you know:
1) Did they make the seats easier to adjust?
2) Did they adjust the heat so it doesn't come out of one hole near the pilot's right foot?
3) Did they go to all metal, that would take care of the foam root...
Thanks
2) never heard of this one, my ct hasn't seen much moisture
3) no gear issues
they did put a diffuser on the hole by your right foot, no more hot foot.
no this design is same composite as ctsw.
I have wondered about this stick forces quite a bit. I actually argued with the dealer extensively over this. You (Charlie Tango) and some others have told me that your stick light and balanced. Others, including my plane, have had very stiff lateral forces. They told that is how it is.
The dealer had several CTs on his line with rotted tailbooms. Apparently there was a hole in the tail that alowed water in.
The dealer had several CTs on his line with rotted tailbooms. Apparently there was a hole in the tail that alowed water in.
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Jim Stewart
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm
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Jim Stewart
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm
Aren't stabilized approaches a bit overrated for a light sport plane? I'm far more interested in always being able to glide to a safe landing. Practicing the FAA-required forward slip to a landing is anything but stabilized and even a rookie like me can get comfortable with them.i too can be frustrated with the demands, my girfriend can't fly a stabilized approach. other pilots sometimes sturggle.