stabilized approaches have different definitions.
for a slsa i define it as on speed, configured, on centerline, on glide slope, from 300' agl with only minor adjustments needed to maintain until round out.
08 CTLS
Moderator: drseti
I think the reason for all the disagreements is we had different airplanes.
the 05/early 06 airplanes are different than the mid 06 to later airplanes.
There were lots of hidden changes.
In ours if you flew along in level flight and tapped the rudder pedal and then took your feet off the pedals the airplane would yaw all the way to a full slip condition and stay there.
The ailerons were stiff and you needed to pull the airplane into and out of a turn.
stick bump was present at most speeds.
Elevator was fingertip light except during the last few seconds of landing flare. then it went to the stop with no effect.
Airplane would yaw with flap deflection and take quite a bit of right stick to fly level with flaps down.
Elevator trim was very sensitive and hard to move.
at full flaps if you performed a power off descent the airplane would glide trimmed for a little while and then shudder and violently pitch down. Then just as fast recover with 2/3 up elevator and regain normal glide. then a few seconds later repeat. 55kts indicated. The wing was not stalling. First time this happened to me was at 40 ft altitude. Got my attention real fast.
during one of the trips back to the dealer FD reduced the flap travel to fix this.
installed strong centering springs on the rudder. They did not have any tension at neutral and there was a clunk when passing from left to right turn.
The later airplanes you guys are flying are different than what I had and can't be compared.
Moral is fly each one before buying it. There are big differences between airplanes that look identical.
the 05/early 06 airplanes are different than the mid 06 to later airplanes.
There were lots of hidden changes.
In ours if you flew along in level flight and tapped the rudder pedal and then took your feet off the pedals the airplane would yaw all the way to a full slip condition and stay there.
The ailerons were stiff and you needed to pull the airplane into and out of a turn.
stick bump was present at most speeds.
Elevator was fingertip light except during the last few seconds of landing flare. then it went to the stop with no effect.
Airplane would yaw with flap deflection and take quite a bit of right stick to fly level with flaps down.
Elevator trim was very sensitive and hard to move.
at full flaps if you performed a power off descent the airplane would glide trimmed for a little while and then shudder and violently pitch down. Then just as fast recover with 2/3 up elevator and regain normal glide. then a few seconds later repeat. 55kts indicated. The wing was not stalling. First time this happened to me was at 40 ft altitude. Got my attention real fast.
during one of the trips back to the dealer FD reduced the flap travel to fix this.
installed strong centering springs on the rudder. They did not have any tension at neutral and there was a clunk when passing from left to right turn.
The later airplanes you guys are flying are different than what I had and can't be compared.
Moral is fly each one before buying it. There are big differences between airplanes that look identical.
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
sorry to make fun charlie but it sounds like you had bowling balls rolling fore and aft in the fuselage.Cub flyer wrote:...
at full flaps if you performed a power off descent the airplane would glide trimmed for a little while and then shudder and violently pitch down. Then just as fast recover with 2/3 up elevator and regain normal glide. then a few seconds later repeat. 55kts indicated. The wing was not stalling. First time this happened to me was at 40 ft altitude. Got my attention real fast.
your advice is good, fly before you buy, which was impossible when you had to order and wait.
my ct is an early 06 and i have friends with 05's and these are good flying ct's.
there is too much difference between my experience and yours to make sense of it. FWIW i have been told by the nevada dealer that i have an exceptionally sweet flying ctsw.
had a wannabe pilot roll my ct repeatedly to 80 degrees yesterday. i often have people take their hands and feet off the controls to demonstrate that they are holding pressure without realizing it.
some pilots do well after you tell them not to move the controls but to instead just think about it.
Yep. I think it was our particular airplane. There are people with less time learing in them and others who love theirs to death.
Why the difference? We had tundra tires (6.00 x 6) and the small 05 tail for one. Flew with and without wheel pants.
We had the short stabilator balance/trim tab.
Thrust line varies between airplanes. depending on who bonds the firewall on and how many washers were installed between firewall and mount.
Rigging of the controls. Ours was one of the first assembled by US dealers and not reps of the manufacturer. I think they were still reading the book. Wings were loose on the fuselage and did not have the plastic shims. Squeaked a lot during taxi and rough air.
Something was under stress in the airplane because the windshield cracked on the delivery flight. Why I don't know and I've not heard of any others. It was fixed under warranty.
I wondered where I had left that bowling ball. But that it is exactly what it felt like.
I would like to fly a newer one sometime to compare. I may stop in at York and see a new LS.
Why the difference? We had tundra tires (6.00 x 6) and the small 05 tail for one. Flew with and without wheel pants.
We had the short stabilator balance/trim tab.
Thrust line varies between airplanes. depending on who bonds the firewall on and how many washers were installed between firewall and mount.
Rigging of the controls. Ours was one of the first assembled by US dealers and not reps of the manufacturer. I think they were still reading the book. Wings were loose on the fuselage and did not have the plastic shims. Squeaked a lot during taxi and rough air.
Something was under stress in the airplane because the windshield cracked on the delivery flight. Why I don't know and I've not heard of any others. It was fixed under warranty.
I wondered where I had left that bowling ball. But that it is exactly what it felt like.
I would like to fly a newer one sometime to compare. I may stop in at York and see a new LS.
Cub Flyer,
I would say that your plane was not rigged correctly after it was shipped over. I have 30+ hours in a 2005 CT, and 70+ in my 2006 model. Neither have shown any bad habits whatsoever. My 2006 is an absolute joy to fly. It's very responsive, trims well for hands off flight, etc. As long as you maintain appropriate airspeed, it's not difficult to land at all. The only time I've noticed any stick shake was when the autopilot was engaged with the plane out of trim. Mine came through the same distributor as those reporting on here (i.e. Charlie Tango, Roger, Jim Stewart) that their planes are nice flying aircraft. The 2005 was a demo plane there as well, until they received a 2006 model. Maybe our distributor (Flight Design West) just knows their stuff better than others.
Roger Fane
N510RF - KRHV
I would say that your plane was not rigged correctly after it was shipped over. I have 30+ hours in a 2005 CT, and 70+ in my 2006 model. Neither have shown any bad habits whatsoever. My 2006 is an absolute joy to fly. It's very responsive, trims well for hands off flight, etc. As long as you maintain appropriate airspeed, it's not difficult to land at all. The only time I've noticed any stick shake was when the autopilot was engaged with the plane out of trim. Mine came through the same distributor as those reporting on here (i.e. Charlie Tango, Roger, Jim Stewart) that their planes are nice flying aircraft. The 2005 was a demo plane there as well, until they received a 2006 model. Maybe our distributor (Flight Design West) just knows their stuff better than others.
Roger Fane
N510RF - KRHV
FD HQ in Conneticut assembled it and test flew it.
But I think it was issues with that particular airplane. Only explanation I can find for how you guys talk about flying yours.
If I get out west again I'll look somebody up.
I have never flown an 06 with the large tail.
My father might be in Catilina Island counting Bison off the coast of LA next month. Infrared camera on a Cessna 206. I got out of that job and need to mind the shop. Maybe the next job.
But I think it was issues with that particular airplane. Only explanation I can find for how you guys talk about flying yours.
If I get out west again I'll look somebody up.
I have never flown an 06 with the large tail.
My father might be in Catilina Island counting Bison off the coast of LA next month. Infrared camera on a Cessna 206. I got out of that job and need to mind the shop. Maybe the next job.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
Stick bump should go away with a flap hinge fairing redesign.
I think they are on the right track with that one. I flew the CT here after washing it. The top of the wing was clean but there were some drops on the bottom that came out of the flap well and froze on the bottom of the flap skin when we pushed it outside. Made such a bump and rattle in the stick I came back and landed. Could not find anything wrong so we figured that must be it. Pushed airplane back in the hangar and got rid of the bumps.
The fuel feeding thing comes from having two individual vents and interconnect.
The Cessna's have a big problem with that also. You don't hear of a Cessna 150 having many feeding problems but the 185's will. I forget if the 150 has a single vent or two. I know 185's have 2. Comes down to cap sealing and vent position behind the wing struts. You can tune your vent by pulling it up or down behind the strut. The correct position is 2/3 shadowed behind the strut.
Solution might be to have check valve caps similar to the later cessna style and then one under wing NACA vent somewhere. That seems to work ok on most airplanes. The tube vents can ice up and need a small hole drilled in the back. The check valve caps allow venting if the main vent gets clogged.
The ram air tube vents like on a Piper vagabond or Taylorcraft are not great because if you put them on backwards it will quit. And you feel like a dope because you can look out the windshield and see it is backwards but the window does not open on that side.
I like a selector with positions for both or left/ right. If you have a cap problem you can isolate the leaking tank. But a lot of airplanes have an interconnect which is not valved so that may not work either. With the interconnect if a cap comes off it may suck fuel from both tanks and electric guages will read full. Sight guages will be accurate.
5 times I have had line service leave a cap off. Caught it every time before getting in the air. Now it is a habit to look at the caps before getting into the pilots seat NO MATTER who fueled it (including me).
The old Tripacer left right off works fine for me. I like being able to takeoff on the left, Switch to the right, Run the right dry and the have an almost full tank to complete the flight on.
With both tanks all the time you can have 5 gallons left each side but it really looks low and scary. With the tripacer I would have 1 empty tank and one over 1/2 full. For flights with large passengers I can fly with less fuel safely than an airplane with both position only. Less weight, more freight.
I think FD will probably have installed a header tank to allow some margin if the system un ports during uncoordinated flight. Or two lines with one to the outside portion of the tank.
Most certified high wing airplanes have two lines to each tank. One to the leading edge and one to the back. The ones that don't all have header tanks or were modified to include them later (Kitfox). The CT tanks are pretty short in chord so pitch does not seem to cause any problems. Most other airplanes with the tank behind the spar have tanks with a large chord. (front spar to rear spar)
Might have vents on the funky wing tips. We'll have to see one in person.
I think they are on the right track with that one. I flew the CT here after washing it. The top of the wing was clean but there were some drops on the bottom that came out of the flap well and froze on the bottom of the flap skin when we pushed it outside. Made such a bump and rattle in the stick I came back and landed. Could not find anything wrong so we figured that must be it. Pushed airplane back in the hangar and got rid of the bumps.
The fuel feeding thing comes from having two individual vents and interconnect.
The Cessna's have a big problem with that also. You don't hear of a Cessna 150 having many feeding problems but the 185's will. I forget if the 150 has a single vent or two. I know 185's have 2. Comes down to cap sealing and vent position behind the wing struts. You can tune your vent by pulling it up or down behind the strut. The correct position is 2/3 shadowed behind the strut.
Solution might be to have check valve caps similar to the later cessna style and then one under wing NACA vent somewhere. That seems to work ok on most airplanes. The tube vents can ice up and need a small hole drilled in the back. The check valve caps allow venting if the main vent gets clogged.
The ram air tube vents like on a Piper vagabond or Taylorcraft are not great because if you put them on backwards it will quit. And you feel like a dope because you can look out the windshield and see it is backwards but the window does not open on that side.
I like a selector with positions for both or left/ right. If you have a cap problem you can isolate the leaking tank. But a lot of airplanes have an interconnect which is not valved so that may not work either. With the interconnect if a cap comes off it may suck fuel from both tanks and electric guages will read full. Sight guages will be accurate.
5 times I have had line service leave a cap off. Caught it every time before getting in the air. Now it is a habit to look at the caps before getting into the pilots seat NO MATTER who fueled it (including me).
The old Tripacer left right off works fine for me. I like being able to takeoff on the left, Switch to the right, Run the right dry and the have an almost full tank to complete the flight on.
With both tanks all the time you can have 5 gallons left each side but it really looks low and scary. With the tripacer I would have 1 empty tank and one over 1/2 full. For flights with large passengers I can fly with less fuel safely than an airplane with both position only. Less weight, more freight.
I think FD will probably have installed a header tank to allow some margin if the system un ports during uncoordinated flight. Or two lines with one to the outside portion of the tank.
Most certified high wing airplanes have two lines to each tank. One to the leading edge and one to the back. The ones that don't all have header tanks or were modified to include them later (Kitfox). The CT tanks are pretty short in chord so pitch does not seem to cause any problems. Most other airplanes with the tank behind the spar have tanks with a large chord. (front spar to rear spar)
Might have vents on the funky wing tips. We'll have to see one in person.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
While I'll agree that the CTSW isn't perfect (what airplane is?), making it a "novice pilot" plane might not be such a good thing. Part of what makes it fun would make it more difficult for a novice pilot. A 150 is a great novice pilot airplane, but it isn't that much fun to fly.tadel001 wrote:As for my comments on the CT. I do think it needed some significant changes to be a suitable plane for the novice pilot. ... Now I prefer to fly light aircraft. I find them to be a lot more fun.