Status of US S-LSA Market

[fatsportpilot]

I met Scott a few years ago, but became re-acquainted with him during the Rainbow Aviation "Light Sport Repairman - Inspection" course that was held at Scott's facility in Denton. Really nice guy.

He had a couple of the Jabiru S-LSA (J230 and J170, IIRC) in the hangar where out class took place, and all the attendees were swarming all over them. Nice airplanes, with HUGE baggage areas. Scott mentioned that if/when the "proposed" changes to LSA go through, Jabiru is almost certain to roll out a gross weight increase to all their airplanes, as they were designed for those higher gross weights in Australia to begin with. He told of one guy who flies his Jabiru J230 with a pair of Great Danes in the back... Looked to me like they could have sprawled out with room to spare!

They have such good baggage areas because the LSA version is exactly the same as the certified 4 seat version but with the rear seats removed and the max gross reduced on paper.

[ShawnM]

Thanks Paul - I was wondering what happened to DCT.

Shawn - Thanks for the info on the Sebastian FL operation. They sold one of their demos up here near me a few months ago. I wonder how much longer the existing SportCruiser fleet will be supported if the bankruptcy situation with the parent company doesn't get resolved in a timely manner? Is the factory still even making Sport Cruisers for other parts of the world and/or spare parts anymore? Not sure of the liability insurance implications of converting to E-LSA either, but that would provide an easier path to upgrade to a 10-in screen Dynon.

Supported? That's funny, there's never been support from the factory for a SportCruiser. This is why one needs to convert their SportCruiser to E-LSA so you can support yourself when the need arises. Like installing that 10" Dynon. The factory is still in business as of this post, they simply changed the company name yet again to hide from their creditors. How much longer they can keep up this charade is anyone's guess. As for insurance on an E-LSA conversion, there might be a slight increase in premium and I know of two people with no change to their premium after converting to E-LSA so it's really a non-issue.

[Siddhartha]

So it's decision time. I've identified a fairly recent S-LSA (SportCruiser) with all of the "bells and whistles" but it's a bit north of $100k. For less than half of that, I could get a considerably older Beech Sundowner. Also in the plus column for the S-LSA is that it's a lot newer airframe so corrosion shouldn't be an issue, and it can be had with a BRS chute. However, Beechcraft airframes are built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and the cabin is quite spacious - especially generous headroom. With a lot less invested up-front, there would be a decent budget for a new or reman engine, upgraded avionics and sprucing up the interior and still be less than the cost of the recent SportCruiser. Plus there are still spare parts to be had from the US (alleviating the necessity of trying to obtain them from a bankrupt manufacturer in a foreign country). So while the SportCruiser certainly has more tarmac-appeal with its sleek lines and newer powerplant and airframe, the plodding Sundowner appears to represent a better value (a lot more capable airplane for less than half the cost of the SportCruiser. Decisions, decisions. Thoughts?

[AGLyme]

Stop using your brain and your heart... vote with your gut...; )

My wife bought a "cheap" horse. Trust me, there is absolutely nothing cheap owning a horse. The food, upkeep, vet bills, board... blah... you need to take a look at the annual maintenance, fuel and insurance costs. Hangar/tie down fees are the only thing that is similar. I have an LSA and I love the fuel bills vs my buds'.

If it were me, and I did shop for both when I was in the market, I went with what I enjoyed flying the most.

[jetcat3]

Yeah, great advice above. I think you’d enjoy flying the SportCruiser more, let alone how much cheaper it will be to operate year in and year out. I had about a 1,000 hours in 1.5 years in the SportCruiser and really grew to love it, despite its shortcomings. It’s a fun little airplane!

[Siddhartha]

Jetcat3 - What do you view as the SportCruiser's shortcomings (other than the current bankruptcy situation of the manufacturer)?
If they get kicked around in turbulence more than a Cessna 150/152 I don't think that would be much fun (I preferred the ride in a Cessna 172/
Skyhawk over the 150/152 in my Part 23 days).

[JimParker256]

Buy the plane you enjoy flying more. Both are great airplanes (IMHO), and can cruise at pretty much the same airspeeds, but HOW they they do so is quite different. Where the Sport Cruiser is sporty and responsive, the Sundowner is fairly placid and "solid" feeling. The Sport Cruiser cabin is far more comfortable for 2 people (IMHO), but if you need to take 3 (or even 4 smaller folks for shorter flights with partial fuel), you'd be better off with the Sundowner. If you have any desire to obtain an instrument rating, the Sundowner would be the better choice. Then there's the whole "stick vs yoke" argument. Personally, I find the stick to be more natural (and fun), but I don't really mind flying a plane with a yoke, either. It can be easier to get in/out of a "yoke" airplane than a "stick" however...

When it comes to maintenance, the cost of airframes parts from Beech (Raytheon) can be eye-watering, but those parts are generally available (though sometimes after a considerable wait). Sport Cruiser parts may or may not be available from the bankrupt factory or other sources, but at least you have the option of taking it to Experimental so that you can basically make yourself (or have made for you) replacement parts. If you go the E-LSA route, and you are mechanically inclined, you can also take the LSR-I course and do your own annual condition inspections, which could save you money. (Interestingly enough, in my LSR-I course, there were five guys who successfully completed the course, but realized that they were NOT competent to do their own inspections, and would be using an A&P for theirs, after all... Sometimes education is a REALLY good thing!)

Engines are another part of the discussion... The Sundowner has a Lycoming IO-360 (IIRC), which is known to be pretty bulletproof IF they are operated regularly. But let one sit for a while, and you could easily have internal corrosion of the camshaft that requires a LOT of $$ to repair. When you're inspecting logs, long periods of inactivity almost guarantee internal corrosion... The mags need to be overhauled or replaced at 500 hours (or less - sometimes considerably less), so budget for that in your maintenance calculations. And know that you can expect vacuum system failures fairly regularly unless you replace the vacuum driven instruments with electric.

The Sport Cruiser's Rotax 912 has proven to be highly reliable as well. Other than the doggone carb floats (we're all hoping the new "solution" from Rotax actually solves the problem this time), there aren't many issues with the engine. Both engines can easily make TBO, but I would say the percentage of Rotax 912s making to TBO is considerably higher than even the legendary Lycoming O-360... And fuel costs will be about half (or even less, if you run MoGas) in the Rotax than in the Lycoming.

Bottom line gets back to my opening sentence: Buy the plane you enjoy more. Airplanes are not a "rational" purchase. Flying Southwest will always be less expensive if you're going more than a couple hundred miles, and a car will get you there almost as fast on those shorter trips (counting the drive to/from the airport to get to your plane). But those of us who fly GA could care less about the "logical" arguments. We want to FLY. It makes sense to have as much fun as possible while doing so.

[Warmi]

Jetcat3 - What do you view as the SportCruiser's shortcomings (other than the current bankruptcy situation of the manufacturer)?
If they get kicked around in turbulence more than a Cessna 150/152 I don't think that would be much fun (I preferred the ride in a Cessna 172/
Skyhawk over the 150/152 in my Part 23 days).

I have a similar plane and my outlook is as follows ..

The reason these are called Light Sport planes is because these are leisure oriented machines designed for buzzing around within, say, 200 miles radius of your base on a nice and calm day.
Will you get bounced around in turbulence and is it going to be like C150 - of course you will.

I accept that because , just like with other recreational sports , I pick my day and time when to enjoy outdoor activities and don't try to pretend to have fun playing badminton on a windy day or playing when it is 10 degrees outside ... nor I hop on my bike and try to do a cross country to some place 2 states over ...

As long as you accept these design limitations then you will have a lot of fun buzzing around in what feels like a mini-fighter compared to your typical C152 or C172 ...
If that's not what you are looking for then the other plane is probably a better choice.

I think that's all there is to it.

[AGLyme]

Warmi is correct. A "light sport" plane is certainly lighter than the metal GA brand name planes we all know and took lessons in.
I fly with a bunch of GA planes for lunch trips (Bonanzas, cessna 172 RG, C-182's, C-170 and an Arrow) and honestly I can say that my plane, a Flight Design CTLSi has not suffered any more turbulence than the others. We typically travel about 60 and 120 miles one way. I have taken several cross countries in the 600-1000 miles range and the plane is actually more comfortable than the GA planes I have flown in the past, and, more comfortable than my pals' GA planes.

I would suggest you keep looking, keep flying different types of airplanes. It is a cruel time for people who are in the market for their first plane. The choice between old GA (cheaper to buy, not to operate) vs new Light Sport (pricier to buy, but cheaper to operate). I went through it in 2018. I finally settled on the Flight Design because I loved the visibility and flight characteristics. When I did purchase the Flight Design, I resigned myself to flying about 80% of the time as my GA pals fly. Not once did I have to pass on flying on a windy day with my GA pals. If it is too windy for them, it is usually too windy for me and vice versa.

Airplanes like cars are an incredibly personal choice, limited by budget. I will say this, it is a joy putting in 10 gallons of 93 octane from Shell down the street and flying for 280 miles. Much cheaper than 100LL at the airport. Have fun in the process.

[designrs]

It is almost certain that I would not have had any interest in becoming a pilot if LSA did not exist. Even with limited demand, there are so many cool LSA Aircraft to choose from.

I only wanted to fly aircraft that I found attractive and exciting. Cessna 150/152/172 don’t do it for me... never did, never will. However, I do respect the planes and pilots that choose to fly them. If it makes them happy and meets their needs then great.

Cirrus and Diamond were way beyond any stretch of my finances... and I would not have known to seek out more obscure older / classic aircraft that are very cool but not all that common.

The USA is another market for European companies that are building aircraft for the more vibrant European market... so they might as well ship a few over here!