3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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TimTaylor
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:22 pm

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:I also believe the 3600 to be a typo. If I were to be true, it opens the door to many questions. Mine would be, loosing the certified parts and avionics, WHAT manufacturer (some no longer in business) will authorize changes to the aircraft or issue LOA’s on planes built, in many cases 30, 40 or more years ago???

I would assume, just because a certified airplane falls within a revised definition of LSA, nothing would change for it if the manufacturing company no longer exist. It would still need to be maintained per it's certification. Don't we already have that situation for a lot of vintage LSA? The only difference is it could be flown by a Sport Pilot or other pilot using Sport Pilot privileges and limitations.


Tim, still way too many planes out there, like Piper, Cessna etc. LIABILITY is the killer here, imo.

I don't know what you mean. We're probably only talking about C150 and C152 and maybe a few others. Are you saying Sport Pilots are more prone to accidents than Private Pilots and Cessna would be at a significant increased risk of liability? If that's the case, let's just do away with Sport Pilots and Private Pilots and required all pilots to be Commercial. As with most things, you have to weigh risk vs reward. I see very little risk in allowing a properly trained and licensed Sport Pilot to fly a Cessna 150. It actually probably lowers the risk vs a Cessna SkyCatcher.

I don't understand why some people try to turn a possibly great change into a bad thing. It's like, I've got mine so to hell with everyone else. Somewhat like health insurance and the ACA.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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smutny
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby smutny » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:38 pm

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:WHAT manufacturer (some no longer in business) will authorize changes to the aircraft or issue LOA’s on planes built, in many cases 30, 40 or more years ago???


None. Because none of them were built under ASTM guidelines, just like my PA-11. It meets all the LSA parameters, but it is a type certificated aircraft and will never change.

Forget all the old jalopies. Haven't y'all seen what was displayed at Aero in Friedrichshaven? There are some really nice aircraft out there that would meet this new criteria! I'm excited to see what this will bring to US skies.

Also note, that gross weight increases are not uncommon in GA. Most SLSA's have E-AB versions or versions sold overseas with higher gross weights. It could be as simple as them submitting for approval new operating parameters based upon existing data and pushing it out to the fleet.
John Smutny
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Normandy AIrcraft @ S36

TimTaylor
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:59 pm

Don't forget the old jalopies. They are what's affordable for many people. If more of them can be flown by Sport Pilots, that's great.
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smutny
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby smutny » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:28 pm

My point is people are getting wrapped around the axle on what old airplanes can be grandfathered in and missing entirely the options that this will open for us.

Remember I own an old airplane!
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:36 pm

smutny wrote:My point is people are getting wrapped around the axle on what old airplanes can be grandfathered in and missing entirely the options that this will open for us.

Remember I own an old airplane!

Agreed, for people who can afford a new $200,000 LSA.
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:29 pm

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:I also believe the 3600 to be a typo. If I were to be true, it opens the door to many questions. Mine would be, loosing the certified parts and avionics, WHAT manufacturer (some no longer in business) will authorize changes to the aircraft or issue LOA’s on planes built, in many cases 30, 40 or more years ago???


Only the manufacture of newly built SLSA's authorize changes to their aircraft. Changes to the older aircraft like you mentioned are authorized by the FAA. The manufacture has no say in the matter. The FAA is ever so slowly allowing non TSO parts to be installed on standard category aircraft. This could change even more if the long awaited part 23 rewrite ever comes to fruition.

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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:44 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
smutny wrote:My point is people are getting wrapped around the axle on what old airplanes can be grandfathered in and missing entirely the options that this will open for us.

Remember I own an old airplane!

Agreed, for people who can afford a new $200,000 LSA.


...and those people can already afford to fly and/or own their own airplane(s). I'm more interested in the effect changes might have in opening up aviation to more people, not just the wealthy. I couldn't care less about giving the wealthy more options.
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby dstclair » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:16 pm

This article shines a little light on the subject: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and ... egulations

Basically, this is part of the MOSAIC initiative and the 3600 lb MTOW is in the 'exploratory phase'. NPRM out sometime in 2019 and comments not until 2020. One key goal is "A reformed LSA category would contain more qualifying aircraft as well as long-sought features including electric propulsion."

Now for a bit of my opinion. Increasing the MTOW of S-LSA or E-LSA (that started out as S-LSA) would appear to be problematic (to me) without changes to the ASTM standard or re-certifying to CS-VLA/JAR-VLA. A S-LSA manufacturer could not just issue an LOA to increase the weight since this would be against the S-LSA ASTM standard. E-LSA might be possible but you'd need find a DAR to approve the change (right?). CS-VLA is accepted by the FAA and several manufacturers in Europe have aircraft in the category that could be brought over. Kind of surprised they haven't done so given BasicMed. Maybe MOSAIC would be a catalyst.

Doesn't really affect me and my Sting but it will be interesting to watch the process unwind.
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby smpoole7 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:45 am

drseti wrote:One thing that confuses me about this announcement is that the rumored forthcoming NPRM is totally at odds with ASTM Consensus Standards. I know of no such discussions in ASTM Committee.


Someone else may have already mentioned this (I've been breezing through this thread), but there's a lot of discussion in other forums about possible confusion over the limit. If it's increased to 750 KILOGRAMS (caps on purpose), that works out to about 1650 lbs. The supposed confusion is that some saw that number and assumed that it was 1650 KILOGRAMS, which would indeed be 3,600 pounds.

The European agencies HAVE been discussing an increase to 750 kilos, according to what I've seen.

But don't hold me to any of the above. :)

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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby MrMorden » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:14 am

1600 or 3600, I’m happy either way. But I think 3600lb is possible, it just depends on what the new rule is intending to do. And that is information we don’t have yet.
Andy Walker
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2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby drseti » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:13 am

MrMorden wrote:it just depends on what the new rule is intending to do.


I think it's important to remember that there is no new rule yet. There isn't even an NPRM yet. At this point, there's nothing but talk. (Not that I'm opposed to talk. After all, we are called sportpilotTALK for a reason.) ;)
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby Sling 2 Pilot » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:26 am

smutny wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:WHAT manufacturer (some no longer in business) will authorize changes to the aircraft or issue LOA’s on planes built, in many cases 30, 40 or more years ago???


None. Because none of them were built under ASTM guidelines, just like my PA-11. It meets all the LSA parameters, but it is a type certificated aircraft and will never change.

Forget all the old jalopies. Haven't y'all seen what was displayed at Aero in Friedrichshaven? There are some really nice aircraft out there that would meet this new criteria! I'm excited to see what this will bring to US skies.

Also note, that gross weight increases are not uncommon in GA. Most SLSA's have E-AB versions or versions sold overseas with higher gross weights. It could be as simple as them submitting for approval new operating parameters based upon existing data and pushing it out to the fleet.


Certified A/C will require a 337. Actually, until the new rules come out, we shouldn’t speculate on what the process will entail. It’s more than 5 years away. Because of that , anyone looking to buy shouldn’t wait. Unless of course their need to own and fly is only a passing fancy.

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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby smutny » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 am

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Certified A/C will require a 337.


I think I get your point, but the comment can be misleading. If I came up with a neat modification to my PA-11 that could increase its GW, and went through the whole STC process to get it approved, then yes, it could result in my airframe getting a GWI. And then I could choose to sell that STC so other PA-11's could also get a GWI. But you can't just create a STC to do a GWI and it would automatically be applicable to the entire fleet.
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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:58 am

Sling 2 Pilot wrote:
smutny wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:WHAT manufacturer (some no longer in business) will authorize changes to the aircraft or issue LOA’s on planes built, in many cases 30, 40 or more years ago???


None. Because none of them were built under ASTM guidelines, just like my PA-11. It meets all the LSA parameters, but it is a type certificated aircraft and will never change.

Forget all the old jalopies. Haven't y'all seen what was displayed at Aero in Friedrichshaven? There are some really nice aircraft out there that would meet this new criteria! I'm excited to see what this will bring to US skies.

Also note, that gross weight increases are not uncommon in GA. Most SLSA's have E-AB versions or versions sold overseas with higher gross weights. It could be as simple as them submitting for approval new operating parameters based upon existing data and pushing it out to the fleet.


Certified A/C will require a 337. Actually, until the new rules come out, we shouldn’t speculate on what the process will entail. It’s more than 5 years away. Because of that , anyone looking to buy shouldn’t wait. Unless of course their need to own and fly is only a passing fancy.

Nothing wrong with speculating on this. It's not like speculating on the cause of a plane crash, etc.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: 3600 lbs gross for LSA ?

Postby MrMorden » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:01 pm

BTW, AvWeb today states the 3600lb number was *not* a typo or math error. But they also note the hammering out is still in process, and that is a starting point number and not set in stone.

I have a feeling what might have happened is that FAA and EAA/AOPA had some productive discussions, and that all parties might have agreed *in principle* to 3600lb, without any kind of commitment, and understanding that is just a starting point. EAA/AOPA then quickly publicized it in order to do two things:

1). Make the memberships excited and increase revenues through dues and such;

2). Set expectations at 3600lb, trying to back the FAA into a corner so they could not lower that number without inciting anger in the GA community. Which would *also* increase membership revenue if the number is lowered as angy pilots try to increase advocacy dollars to “fix” it.

But maybe I’m just cynical.
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Athens, GA
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