Sport Pilot Talk

WDD wrote: Then again, surely something has to govern how far you can take things. I can't imagine you can take an ELSA Vans RV12 and convert it to a bi plane, etc.

There’s nothing to say you couldn’t, as long as it remains within the LSA restrictions as posted by ShawnM.

Actually, it was Shawn who posted those restrictions (with which I concur, but let's give credit where it's due).

drseti wrote:Actually, it was Shawn who posted those restrictions (with which I concur, but let's give credit where it's due).

Corrected - thanks.

WDD wrote:If you take an SLSA to ELSA, can't you then do what you want to it? Put another motor in it, etc.

Why bother taking it to EAB?

One can not move a SLSA or ELSA to E-AB. E-AB is specifically for those that build at least 51% of an aircraft.

You can move an SLSA issued a special airworthiness certificate under §21.190 to Experimental operating Light-Sport under §21.191(i)(3), but if major alterations such as an engine and/or propeller change are made, I believe Phase 1 testing must be repeated.

Scooper wrote:You can move an SLSA issued a special airworthiness certificate under §21.190 to Experimental operating Light-Sport under §21.191(i)(3), but if major alterations such as an engine and/or propeller change are made, I believe Phase 1 testing must be repeated.

You would be correct Stan, many E-LSA modifications fall under the "minor" modifications category, with no additional Phase I flight testing required. And with "minor" modification the aircraft remains in the E-LSA Phase II Operating Limitations just as it was when originally converted to E-LSA.

Now a "major" modification is a different story, like making a RV-12 a biplane. Depending on the scope of the modification made to your E-LSA aircraft, if it falls into the "major" modification category then re-entry to Phase I flight testing may be required by the FAA.

So....

1) Build an RV12 Kit. Follow the instructions exactly, Vans will issue you paper work to certify as ELSA. Then you can put in a Viking engine, put on different wings, etc. Keep it within LSA Specs. Will still be an ELSA.

2) Build an RV12 Kit. Put in a Viking engine, put on different wings, etc. Vans will not issue paperwork to certify as ELSA, so you have to register as an EAB. Keep it within LSA Specs. Will never be an ELSA.

Good summary. I would add that in case 1, you (and any subsequent owners) can take a weekend course and receive an LSRI certificate. In case 2, you (as original builder) can get a repairman's certificate upon issue of the airworthiness certificate, but no subsequent owner can ever get one.

TimTaylor wrote:I would be happy with a Rotax engine in the Vashon Ranger. With the Contential, it is on the verge of being too heavy to be practical for most people.

I think a Ranger with a turbo 914 would be a great back-country aircraft, especially here in the West. I suspect Vashon would sell more 914 Rangers at $150K than they'll sell 0-200 Rangers to flight schools. Unless the LSA weight limit is lifted to 700kg, flight schools and CFIs have too much to lose sneaking around the 600kg limit.

Let's not assume anybody is going to sneak around the weight limit. We're all about following and abiding by all the regulations.

RichK wrote:

TimTaylor wrote:I would be happy with a Rotax engine in the Vashon Ranger. With the Contential, it is on the verge of being too heavy to be practical for most people.

I think a Ranger with a turbo 914 would be a great back-country aircraft, especially here in the West. I suspect Vashon would sell more 914 Rangers at $150K than they'll sell 0-200 Rangers to flight schools. Unless the LSA weight limit is lifted to 700kg, flight schools and CFIs have too much to lose sneaking around the 600kg limit.

I would say, ditch both Dynons and put that money towards upgrading to Rotax 915

TimTaylor wrote:Let's not assume anybody is going to sneak around the weight limit. We're all about following and abiding by all the regulations.

Yes, as Tim said, let's not assume this. The rules are in place for a reason regardless of what you think of the FAA and/or the government. If/when they are ever changed is irrelevant, the rules now are 1320 for LSA for land use. Not "50 or 100 pounds over the limit" as Paul Bertorelli would have you believe.

Warmi wrote:I would say, ditch both Dynons and put that money towards upgrading to Rotax 915

As great an engine as the 915 is, it was never intended for the LSA market. It's even heavier that the Continental O200D.

drseti wrote:

Warmi wrote:I would say, ditch both Dynons and put that money towards upgrading to Rotax 915

As great an engine as the 915 is, it was never intended for the LSA market. It's even heavier that the Continental O200D.

Not much though ... if they ever increased gross to 1500 lbs and allowed a simple , switch based , constant prop implementation in LSAs we would have a winner here with 915 - especially for STOL style , I want to climb out like crazy, applications ...

WDD wrote:So....

1) Build an RV12 Kit. Follow the instructions exactly, Vans will issue you paper work to certify as ELSA. Then you can put in a Viking engine, put on different wings, etc. Keep it within LSA Specs. Will still be an ELSA.

2) Build an RV12 Kit. Put in a Viking engine, put on different wings, etc. Vans will not issue paperwork to certify as ELSA, so you have to register as an EAB. Keep it within LSA Specs. Will never be an ELSA.

Anything registered as E-AB is not a "light sport" aircraft and does not need to meet the definition of a light sport aircraft. You could put ANY engine into a E-AB RV-12.