Sport Pilot Talk

FastEddieB wrote:
Driving today, I had a thought: someone could buy a Ranger, take it Experimental LSA, sell the Continental for good money and buy one’s ROTAX of choice and hang it on the front. Voilá! Problem solved!

Good idea, but I think it wouldn't be allowed. You can't turn it into an ELSA because you didn't build it according to the manufacturer's plans. You can't convert to an EAB because you didn't build more than 51% of it. Same reason you can't buy a Cesna 150 and swap engines.

Maybe Experimental Exhibition or something else?

WDD wrote: You can't turn it into an ELSA because you didn't build it according to the manufacturer's plans.

I believe you are mistaken. There's a mechanism through which any SLSA can get a new Special Airworthiness Certificate making it an ELSA, regardless of who built it. It can then be modified, as long as the mods don't take it outside of the LSA limitations. This is the standard path when an SLSA manufacturer goes out if business, leaving existing aircraft orphaned.

drseti wrote:

WDD wrote: You can't turn it into an ELSA because you didn't build it according to the manufacturer's plans.

I believe you are mistaken. There's a mechanism through which any SLSA can get a new Special Airworthiness Certificate making it an ELSA, regardless of who built it. It can then be modified, as long as the mods don't take it outside of the LSA limitations. This is the standard path when an SLSA manufacturer goes out if business, leaving existing aircraft orphaned.

Paul is correct, again, in that you can convert the Vashon S-LSA to E-LSA and make ALL the changes you want , including a different engine, as long as you keep it inside the LSA limitations. Doesn't matter who built it. There are "major" and "minor" alterations to the aircraft and each carries a few more rules but it's all doable.

It's also the "standard path" when your LSA manufacturer has a stick up its butt and won't allow its owners to make ANY changes or issue a LOA/MRA for any reason. Ask me how I know.

My factory built SportCruiser was converted from S-LSA to E-LSA and I personally can make any changes to it I want as long as it conforms to the LSA rules. If I wanted to rip out the wonderful 912 that's in it and put the old geezer Continental motor, I could.

WDD wrote:
Good idea, but I think it wouldn't be allowed. You can't turn it into an ELSA because you didn't build it according to the manufacturer's plans. You can't convert to an EAB because you didn't build more than 51% of it. Same reason you can't buy a Cesna 150 and swap engines.

Maybe Experimental Exhibition or something else?

Definitely CAN be done, and at least a handful of SLSA owners on this forum have done it, myself included.



Some manufacturers will also let you choose to have a new Light Sport certified as ELSA on delivery. I believe most new Carbon Cub owners go that route - there are a lot of advantages. And a couple disadvantages as well.

I recertificated my AMD 601XL-B SLSA to Experimental in November, 2016, and then obtained my Repairman Certificate - Inspection. Brian Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation (A&P I/A and DAR) completed the SLSA to ELSA paperwork and sent it to the Oakland FSDO. If you search N601KE in the FAA aircraft records database, you'll find under Airworthiness it says, "Classification: Experimental", and "Category: Operating Light-Sport Prev. issued cert under 21.190."

Legal to convert to the Rotax, yes. But practical? Doubtful, unless you’re a mechanical engineer with access to Vashon’s drawings, CAD models, and analyses. Different weight, CG, load path, mounting, stresses, vibration, heat loads, air flow, throttle, instrument interfaces, ..... Many other things I’m not thinking about at the moment.

I must admit that I'm still intrigued by the Ranger, despite the Flintstone engine choice and resulting lack of useful load!

FastEddieB wrote:Some manufacturers will also let you choose to have a new Light Sport certified as ELSA on delivery. I believe most new Carbon Cub owners go that route - there are a lot of advantages. And a couple disadvantages as well.

When purchasing a factory built RV-12 from Van's, you can select S-LSA or E-LSA.

Wm.Ince wrote:

FastEddieB wrote:Some manufacturers will also let you choose to have a new Light Sport certified as ELSA on delivery. I believe most new Carbon Cub owners go that route - there are a lot of advantages. And a couple disadvantages as well.

When purchasing a factory built RV-12 from Van's, you can select S-LSA or E-LSA.

If I ever went that way I’d go ELSA in a heartbeat, as long as it still had a warranty. If not, I’d go SLSA and convert once the warranty expired - it’s only a few hundred dollars to do so.

Does Vans publicize what the ratio of SLSA to ELSA registration is? Just curious.

drseti wrote:

WDD wrote: You can't turn it into an ELSA because you didn't build it according to the manufacturer's plans.

I believe you are mistaken. There's a mechanism through which any SLSA can get a new Special Airworthiness Certificate making it an ELSA, regardless of who built it. It can then be modified, as long as the mods don't take it outside of the LSA limitations. This is the standard path when an SLSA manufacturer goes out if business, leaving existing aircraft orphaned.

I stand corrected.

WDD wrote:I stand corrected.

It happens to everyone.

Buying a factory built S-LSA and then converting it IS not for everyone but it gives you the best of both worlds in my opinion. You get a factory built LSA with ALL the freedom you could ever want to make changes to that aircraft to make it better, safer and lessen the pilot workload. It's EXACTLY what I did. Now there are many LSA manufacturers that allow changes, with some paperwork, so this conversion is not necessary. But for those orphaned aircraft and those manufacturers that won't allow changes this is the best option in my opinion. There are pros and cons (although I see no "cons") but that's a discussion for another topic.

Back to the Vashon, I can't really see how this will be a viable airplane given it's very small useful load. It looks like a rather simple and clean aircraft and a workhorse, what other airplane can you stretch out and camp in?

I feel the engine choice because of its weight will be it's achilles heel. Given that we are the "fattest" country on earth and the "average" weight of an adult male being 195.8, with 2 people aboard this will allow you just shy of 8 gallons of fuel. Where's that gonna get you? That's using 6 pounds as the weight of fuel. MOGAS or autofuel actually weighs about +/- 6.25 pounds per gallon depending a temps. Swift fuels even more.

I understand that not everyone weighs 195 pounds, some more and some less, I'm just posting this info for reference.

In the video review by Paul he says (and take this with a grain of salt) "with 2 people aboard there's capacity for 16 gallons of gas". Is there some new math I'm not aware of? That's two 171 pound people and nothing else. This means two naked people, who flies naked with their passenger? Never mind I dont need to know.

I know the price is appealing and I do hope they can make a dent in the LSA arena, we need more affordable LSA aircraft.

Please remember the "L" in LSA stands for LIGHT.

FastEddieB wrote:Does Vans publicize what the ratio of SLSA to ELSA registration is? Just curious.

I am not aware of that.
That withstanding and on another note, according to a rep from Synergy (Van's S-LSA builder), he cautioned against going E-AB vs. E-LSA. He claimed resale and the market size takes a big hit, when attempting to unload an E-AB. I think the reason is because of the 51% rule. If buying a used E-AB, except for the builder, an A/P would be required to perform the annual/condition inspection. Whereas, with E-LSA, only a 16 hour course is requied for non A/P's.

Wm.Ince wrote:I am not aware of that.
That withstanding and on another note, according to a rep from Synergy (Van's S-LSA builder), he cautioned against going E-AB vs. E-LSA. He claimed resale and the market size takes a big hit, when attempting to unload an E-AB. I think the reason is because of the 51% rule. If buying a used E-AB, except for the builder, an A/P would be required to perform the annual/condition inspection. Whereas, with E-LSA, only a 16 hour course is requied for non A/P's.

Also, when buying a E-AB you have no idea of the builder skills and qualifications. Did he/she do it right? I know of a few people who bought E-AB and spent countless hours "fixing" many, many things to make it safe. What's proper and safe to one person may not be to another. Now this can also be the same for E-LSA since anyone can work on it but at least you know the factory" built" the plane right the first time.

To the contrary a friend of mine bought a E-AB RV-12 a few years back and it was the most beautifully crafted E-AB RV-12 I have ever seen. The builders attention to detail on this RV-12 was impeccable.

If you take an SLSA to ELSA, can't you then do what you want to it? Put another motor in it, etc.

Why bother taking it to EAB?

Then again, surely something has to govern how far you can take things. I can't imagine you can take an ELSA Vans RV12 and convert it to a bi plane, etc.

WDD wrote:If you take an SLSA to ELSA, can't you then do what you want to it? Put another motor in it, etc.

Why bother taking it to EAB?

Then again, surely something has to govern how far you can take things. I can't imagine you can take an ELSA Vans RV12 and convert it to a bi plane, etc.

I dont know why you would take it to E-AB, I only have experience with E-LSA.

And yes, you can do whatever you want to it as long as it meets the following criteria so it REMAINS a LSA aircraft:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than -

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or feathering propeller system if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.