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AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:58 am
by c162pilot
Good and interesting AVweb video, by Paul Bertorelli, on the Vashon Ranger that complements the article in Aviation Consumer. FAA register already shows 5 Rangers in production. Hard to imagine if there is any future for the Glasair Merlin being built just up the road in Arlington WA that is now overly late and almost $50,000 more expensive. Interesting comment about flying over gross. I also noted the comment on 10 hours of factory transition training included in the cost of the aircraft. I think Vans offer 2 hours of training for the RV12.
https://www.avweb.com/videos/How-Vashon ... 745-1.html
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:22 am
by Warmi
Yes , Paul B. basically suggested that, since most LSA are already flying 100 lbs or so over gross , this most likely will be “the solution” for the issue of very low useful load on this new plane.
Interesting.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:17 am
by TimTaylor
The Basic Vashon Ranger is almost my "perfect" LSA for $99,500.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:07 pm
by MrMorden
I don't understand Bertorelli's statements that this is somehow "LSA 2.0". There is literally nothing new about this design. It's sheet metal with a legacy style engine and no feature that other LSA have not had for ten years. And it's got the same weight bloat that has been killing LSA utility for the past several years. Apparently it uses a lot of automated production processes, which is great. But it's still $100k+ to get one, so what has that really done for us?
Is it nice? Seems to be. Is it all that and a bag of chips? Nah.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:22 pm
by Warmi
MrMorden wrote:.... There is literally nothing new about this design. It's sheet metal with a legacy style engine and no feature that other LSA have not had for ten years. ...
I guess that's the point.
Most John's responses in that interview can be summarized as " Why Continental ... Why metal ? .. I am sure Rotax is fine but I am an old geezer so that's why ..." ... which pretty much summarizes US general aviation pretty well - he knows his market
Although he did specifically mention carbon fiber as being nightmare to work with ..
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:48 pm
by MrMorden
Warmi wrote:
Although he did specifically mention carbon fiber as being nightmare to work with ..
I heard him say that about fiberglass, but not CF in particular.
Unless we get past the "geezer" mentality, geezers is all that we'll attract. If they could get the price of an LSA to $60k, there would be more young folks flying. Broke 20-somethings are just not as a rule going to even start a hobby that costs $10k to learn, $100 an hour to participate in, and $100k+ to have an own ownership stake in. Nobody would play golf either if it cost $100 an hour to play and $100k for a set of clubs...
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 pm
by c162pilot
Perhaps what is new is made in the USA, high wing and metal. I am not aware of any other prior high wing metal LSA made in the USA until now with the S-21 from Rans and the R7 from Vashon. I lived in the Seattle area for 10 years, however I was not flying then myself but flew with others around Puget Sound, and this plane looks ideal for the type of flying in the Pacific North West. I suspect that through his experience with Dynon, John Torode, know his customers very well and thinks this plane will be attractive to a bunch of prospective customers who do not want to build their own aircraft. Not sure how it would be received in Southern California or Florida, only time will tell. BTW I was talking with someone at Rans last week as I was curious as to why the S-21 Outbound LSA was $5,000 cheaper than the current S-20 Raven. The answer was that they, Rans, discovered that working in metal lowers the manufacturing cost over fabric and this is being passed onto the customer. Will be interesting to see which plane does better in the marketplace the Vashon or the Rans. I would think the Vashon may retain its price advantage as the manufacturing costs are most likely lower then the Rans.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:07 pm
by rsteele
I think it's interesting that the designer worked for Vans. This looks for all the world like a high wing RV. From the castering nose gear to the internal bracing, it sort of screams RV to me. This is fine, RV's are grate planes. Personally, though, I think the weight is a problem, especially for flight training which is one of the stated markets. I bet they are really hoping the LSA weight limit gets a bump.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:08 pm
by rsteele
rsteele wrote:I think it's interesting that the designer worked for Vans. This looks for all the world like a high wing RV. From the castering nose gear to the internal bracing, it sort of screams RV to me. This is fine, RV's are great planes. Personally, though, I think the weight is a problem, especially for flight training which is one of the stated markets. I bet they are really hoping the LSA weight limit gets a bump.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:10 pm
by MrMorden
c162pilot wrote: Will be interesting to see which plane does better in the marketplace the Vashon or the Rans. I would think the Vashon may retain its price advantage as the manufacturing costs are most likely lower then the Rans.
The S-21 is not LSA, gross weight is 1800 and empty almost 1000lb.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:14 pm
by TimTaylor
MrMorden wrote:I don't understand Bertorelli's statements that this is somehow "LSA 2.0". There is literally nothing new about this design. It's sheet metal with a legacy style engine and no feature that other LSA have not had for ten years. And it's got the same weight bloat that has been killing LSA utility for the past several years. Apparently it uses a lot of automated production processes, which is great. But it's still $100k+ to get one, so what has that really done for us?
Is it nice? Seems to be. Is it all that and a bag of chips? Nah.
Basically, a cheaper version of the SkyCatcher with less useful load.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:15 pm
by TimTaylor
Warmi wrote:MrMorden wrote:.... There is literally nothing new about this design. It's sheet metal with a legacy style engine and no feature that other LSA have not had for ten years. ...
I guess that's the point.
Most John's responses in that interview can be summarized as " Why Continental ... Why metal ? .. I am sure Rotax is fine but I am an old geezer so that's why ..." ... which pretty much summarizes US general aviation pretty well - he knows his market
Although he did specifically mention carbon fiber as being nightmare to work with ..
Some of us prefer Continental and metal.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:08 pm
by c162pilot
MrMorden wrote:c162pilot wrote: Will be interesting to see which plane does better in the marketplace the Vashon or the Rans. I would think the Vashon may retain its price advantage as the manufacturing costs are most likely lower then the Rans.
The S-21 is not LSA, gross weight is 1800 and empty almost 1000lb.
Actually the S-21 is also being offered as an S-LSA with a Rotax 912ULS. Several of my flying buddies took a demo flight in one at Sun 'n Fun.
Price sheet below:
https://www.cognitoforms.com/RANS1/S21L ... NDRTFQUOTE
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:43 pm
by HAPPYDAN
Knowing as little as I do about aircraft in general, I thought the Skycatcher was a fine airplane with many solid attributes. The best LSA? Maybe not. If Cessna could have sold it under $100,000, I think it would have done well, possibly even outselling their venerable 172. Maybe that was the real problem. Who knows. Anyway, it's feasible that a smaller company that specializes in this type of proven design may do well with it.
Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article
Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:53 pm
by TimTaylor
We'll see. $30,000 for an engine and $20,000 for avionics gets us to $50,000 without the airplane. I don't think owning a new aircraft of any description will ever be affordable for the average person with other responsibilities. When you're young, you're trying to raise and educate your children and pay the mortgage. When you're retired, you're trying to afford health care and not outlive your money.