Sport Pilot Talk

Half Fast wrote:

HAPPYDAN wrote:As the Ranger is being marketed as a trainer/backcountry flier, is there any advantage to even trying to certify this plane as LSA? The venerable but worn out Cessna 152 needs a sturdy, cost effective replacement, and it doesn't look like Cessna is going to produce one any time soon.

Cost.

A standard cert, rather than to ASTM, would put it way above that $99k figure.

But EA-B would make it more like $50k...

MrMorden wrote: But EA-B would make it more like $50k...

True. But if the primary market is really training, it can't be any flavor of experimental - has to be either SLSA or certified.

drseti wrote:
True. But if the primary market is really training, it can't be any flavor of experimental - has to be either SLSA or certified.

Y'know, I get the feeling they came up with "training" as a primary market after they figured out it was too heavy for much else.

This is one of the fundamental philosophies in the triumph of marketing over engineering: "If you can't fix the flaw, sell it as a feature!"

The way this is going to end up is that either the product will flop or people will simply keep flying over-gross - the hell with Light Sport regulations.

It looks like the only way to introduce a reasonably cheap new trainer plane ( without spending tens of millions of $$ on certifications for an unproven product ) is to go Light Sport and then try to make do with relevant limitations.

I also question the "back country flying" aspect of the marketing. It really needs a tailwheel for that.

Warmi wrote:The way this is going to end up is that either the product will flop or people will simply keep flying over-gross - the hell with Light Sport regulations.

My guess (and that's all it is) would be that people are more willing to fly over LSA limits with planes that are certified and flown at higher weights in other countries, such as the Jabiru. I hope that people are more reluctant to do that with planes that aren't proven above LSA limits.

I'm afraid that this will be another flop unless they get the weight down.

MrMorden wrote:I also question the "back country flying" aspect of the marketing. It really needs a tailwheel for that.

Not to mention capacity for camping gear, fly rods, long guns, and for hauling out a moose carcass....

Half Fast wrote:

Warmi wrote:The way this is going to end up is that either the product will flop or people will simply keep flying over-gross - the hell with Light Sport regulations.

My guess (and that's all it is) would be that people are more willing to fly over LSA limits with planes that are certified and flown at higher weights in other countries, such as the Jabiru. I hope that people are more reluctant to do that with planes that aren't proven above LSA limits.

I'm afraid that this will be another flop unless they get the weight down.

They simply can't get the weight down - unless they switch to Rotax , something they don't want to do because a lot of schools would be more comfortable retiring their 150s if their replacements were at least running engines their mechanics are familiar with.

It is a catch-22 type of situations - the trainer cannot be made for $99K unless it avoids the certifications overhead and it cannot be made to fit the purpose ( weight + engine ) unless it is certified ( as opposed to Light Sport )

Half Fast wrote:

MrMorden wrote:I also question the "back country flying" aspect of the marketing. It really needs a tailwheel for that.

Not to mention capacity for camping gear, fly rods, long guns, and for hauling out a moose carcass....

Squirrel carcass would fit.

Warmi wrote:
They simply can't get the weight down - unless they switch to Rotax , something they don't want to do because a lot of schools would be more comfortable retiring their 150s if their replacements were at least running engines their mechanics are familiar with.

They either have to get engine weight down or airframe weight down, preferably both. The only way to reduce airframe weight and retain strength is to go to a different material. Cabon fiber/kevlar is really the only option, without shrinking the size.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a composite fanboy, I actually prefer metal airplanes. But It's shocking how light and strong carbon airframes are; it's the primary reason the early CT line and lately Pipestrel can flirt with and sometimes exceed 600lb useful loads where most other LSA are hovering around 500-550lb useful.

I'd really love to see what a talented team of engineers could do making a clean sheet design with two design goals:
1) Minimize aircraft weight.
2) Maximize aircraft utility.

Those two conflict somewhat, but all designs are a compromise...

Warmi wrote:
They simply can't get the weight down - unless they switch to Rotax , something they don't want to do because a lot of schools would be more comfortable retiring their 150s if their replacements were at least running engines their mechanics are familiar with.

It is a catch-22 type of situations - the trainer cannot be made for $99K unless it avoids the certifications overhead and it cannot be made to fit the purpose ( weight + engine ) unless it is certified ( as opposed to Light Sport )

Yeah, I get that, but it's not even a good trainer unless the CFI and student have a combined weight of 300lbs or less. Maybe they could include an anorexic 100lb CFI with every plane they sell to a flight school....

This plane is likely to fail for the same reasons the Skycatcher did. I'd really like to understand why they think it will fare differently. Price alone won't do it. If the plane can't do the mission, it doesn't matter if it only costs $99k, or $50k for that matter.

That’s where I think the Aeroprakt A22LS would fit nicely. It has most of the desired training characteristics, simple, tough, and relatively easy to fly with amazing useful load. To me it’s the real Cessna 150 reimagined and would be a nice fit for flight schools here.

jetcat3 wrote:That’s where I think the Aeroprakt A22LS would fit nicely. It has most of the desired training characteristics, simple, tough, and relatively easy to fly with amazing useful load. To me it’s the real Cessna 150 reimagined and would be a nice fit for flight schools here.

Yeah... lovely plane , cheap , roomy ( 50 inches cabin ) and metal - 100 mph at most but who cares for a trainer. Their newer A32 imho is a CTLS killer - 115 cruise speed, much cheaper and even better looking
Too bad only available in Australia at the moment...

I was thinking the same thing, until I saw this just now!

From Dennis Long off the Aeroprakt North America group. I wish I could post the photos but the files are too large.

“Well folks, its getting closer. Here is a sneak peak at the first Aeroprakt A32 Vixxen coming to North America. Just a teaser for you. Fully loaded Glass Panel Dynon HDX, Stick Control with whole airplane parachute. Drool now you guys, like I am.”

Here's an A32 in Australia.