Skycatcher par deux

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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HAPPYDAN
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby HAPPYDAN » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:22 am

Well, since they're located right here in my back yard, I think I'll try to schedule a visit. I would like to know when they found a day clear enough to take that photo, though. We've had like, 2 VFR days so far this year. Deee-pressin'! Also, I believe I read Yeangling (sp) took over Glasair and now produces the Merlin in Arlington. Wasn't it the same company that produced the parts for the Skycatcher? Also worthy of note, the K2 Ski factory is also located on Vashon Island.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:04 am

Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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drseti
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am

My first SportStar came with a Dynon EFIS and a Dynon EMS (this was pre-Skyview). I said I really preferred a six-pack and round engine gauges. The dealer priced that combination out for me. It came in thousands more and pounds heavier.

I went with the dual Dynons.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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WDD
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby WDD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:03 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Interesting that the Ranger is (for now) priced under $100k which is what many aspiring LSA customers originally wanted.


I guess I was naive, but back in 2006 when I first began contemplating the new Light Sport classification, I was envisioning entry-level LSA’s closer to $50k or $60k. I thought if the price was comparable to a new Lexus, let’s say, it would open up a whole new market of “impulse buyers”. Lots of recreational vehicles, power boats and the like selling in that bracket with little price resistance.

Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!


To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.

And maybe not a new Light Sport category, but just raise the weight limits up from 1320 to 2000 or so. Jaburi's 250's are capable of more than that. Heck, in Australia they are 4 place planes.

Heck, given that those on the board have said a light sport is harder to fly than a 172, just take the weigh limit up to 3000 lbs and 200 hp.

But, back to reality...........

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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:32 pm

'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?

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WDD
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby WDD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:57 pm

Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



IDK - what is "quick"? It is after all a fairly expensive purchase (at least it is to me).

Compared to the larger planes, there are relatively fewer number in the inventory for sale, and relatively fewer buyers (Sport vs GA pilots). So sales velocity is just going to be slow.

Reading through all of the posts on this forum, I've come to realize a few things:
1) New vs used prices have a really wide range - tons of depreciation
2) Planes seem to last for a long, long time. Lots of Cessna's from 50 years ago still around.
3) I was surprised that building from a kit is so expensive, and that it is more than buying a good used plane.
4) A few bad choices really kill the value of your plane. Bad or really unique paint costs as much as a more generally acceptable paint scheme, but kills the value of the plane. Putting a Viking engine costs as much as a Rotax, but it will drive the re sale down.

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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby Sling 2 Pilot » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:09 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!


Sorry for the hijack, Eddie, did you get my email? Re: the ne Sky Arrow Distributor. If I remember, it’s Low Country Aviation, in South Carolina.

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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby Sling 2 Pilot » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:11 pm

Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?


Had a nice -12 for sale on the VAN’s forum a few days ago, asking $69k.

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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:30 pm

Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



Point being that folks were complaining about the cost of buying an LSA. They said when the rule came out that they were going to be “affordable” and make flying more accessible to more aspiring pilots.
As you say there are RV-12s for sale in the $60-70 range likely kit builds. But buyers seem hesitant because...?
They can buy, repaint, equip to suit themselves at considerable savings compared to buying new.
There are a large amount of manufacturers offering LSAs which is surprising since the buying/renting market is fairly small. Yet they keep offering them.
Glasair is about 2 years behind its original schedule for the Merlin and has had cooling and weight issues. It has yet to deliver one despite being on the cover of Flying magazine which stated its $150k.
So they must think there’s a market for it, even if it’s a fickle market.

If folks can’t afford them why do they sell them? If they’re too expensive why don’t they make them cheaper? Why do folks say they’re too much money and simply want basic VFR affordable flying on a DL and then buy top of the line with all the options and then suggest higher weights, night flying and IFR all of which are contrary to the light sport rule?

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WDD
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby WDD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:03 pm

People don't want a plane because it is in compliance with the LSA rules. They want the nicest plane to do what they want to do and pay the least for it.

My guess is that the frame of reference isn't the cost of new plane. It's probably the cost of a really nice car.

Can a company make enough selling new planes? Potentially. Some will value a new plane enough that they will pay that price. Hopefully "some" is "enough". And if the manufacture can innovate and keep their costs down (not Cessna).

Got a feeling the price of a new plane is somewhat inelastic. You'll maximize profits by keeping prices high. Now, it would be a great study to see if that was right or wrong. Could Vans maximize profits if they cut the kit prices in half for example and made it up on volume? Just fun to speculate .....

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dstclair
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby dstclair » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:25 pm

Lycoming, Continental and Rotax make good engines. Rotax does win in the power/weight ratio which is a major factor in it being the pervasive choice for LSA. Dynon is aiming at the training market (as per the article) so they must believe they have the useful load to serve the market with the Continental powered Ranger. I would think you would need around 500 lbs useful load to a be a realistic option (2x200 pilot/student + ~100lbs for 2.5 hrs of fuel with VFR reserves). I hope they pull it off and I'll be very interested to see real world useful loads.
dave

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drseti
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:49 pm

Most of the successful SLSA models have a useful load right around 550 pounds. I certainly wouldn't want significantly less than that, which is why I've never seriously considered the Skycatcher.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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Nomore767
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:05 pm

drseti wrote:Most of the successful SLSA models have a useful load right around 550 pounds. I certainly wouldn't want significantly less than that, which is why I've never seriously considered the Skycatcher.


Exactly....my RV-12 SLSA is has 765lbs empty weight so 555lbs useful load. This is also a ‘heavy all metal airplane’ :mrgreen:

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FastEddieB
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:10 pm

And my lithe and lean composite and carbon fiber Sky Arrow comes in at about 860 lbs EW for a useful load of 460 lbs.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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drseti
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Re: Skycatcher par deux

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:14 pm

My current SportStar is a bit plump, at 776 pounds, so it's useful load is a slightly marginal 544 pounds - but that's after upgrading it to ADS-B 2020 In and Out through its dual Dynon Skyviews (with Letters of Authorization, of course!)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US


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