New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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RickSigler
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby RickSigler » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:08 pm

The dealer has told me that as long as no modifications have been made, it can be converted back one time. To be honest it might be smart to order it as an ELSA and save the $2k +. The only buyer that would probably want it converted back would be a flight school.

Thanks.

Rick

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FastEddieB
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:01 am

I’d be curious if any airframe manufacturer has signed off on a conversion back to SLSA status after being converted and flown as an ELSA. It is theoretically possible, but it’s hard to see the manufacturer wanting to accept the liability.
Fast Eddie B.
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:56 am

Yes a experimental for operation of a light sport aircraft can be changed back to the light sport category airworthiness certificate. After looking at the FAA documentation on the procedure, manufacturer approval is not required. Here is a quote from the ctflier site telling where to find the information. "The relevant information can be found in FAA Order 8130.2J, Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft. See the Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) Category. More specifically, see Chapter 9 section 4 that describes "Changing From Experimental to Special LSA Category".
The key here is that it must first be moved from SLSA to experimental to be moved back to SLSA.

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FastEddieB
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:51 am

Interesting. If I am laboring under a misconception let me try to figure out where that misconception came from.
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drseti
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby drseti » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am

Here's the key provision of the FAA Order:

(4) Verify that the aircraft was not altered without the manufacturer approval. The approval must also specify the current applicable revision of FAA-accepted consensus standards in effect at the time the approval was given for the alteration. All manufacturer alteration approvals will be made part of the aircraft's permanent record and documented in the aircraft's records per part 43. If this is not done, the aircraft is not eligible for return to the special light-sport category


In other words, to go back to SLSA, any modifications performed while the aircraft was an ELSA must have been in accordance with an issued LoA from the manufacturer. Since an LoA is not actually required to modify an ELSA, this requirement is unlikely to have been complied with!

Additionally, I consider it unlikely that the manufacturer would even issue an LoA for modification of an SLSA that has been converted to an ELSA, making compliance with that provision difficult at best.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:31 am

drseti wrote:Here's the key provision of the FAA Order:

(4) Verify that the aircraft was not altered without the manufacturer approval. The approval must also specify the current applicable revision of FAA-accepted consensus standards in effect at the time the approval was given for the alteration. All manufacturer alteration approvals will be made part of the aircraft's permanent record and documented in the aircraft's records per part 43. If this is not done, the aircraft is not eligible for return to the special light-sport category


In other words, to go back to SLSA, any modifications performed while the aircraft was an ELSA must have been in accordance with an issued LoA from the manufacturer. Since an LoA is not actually required to modify an ELSA, this requirement is unlikely to have been complied with!

Additionally, I consider it unlikely that the manufacturer would even issue an LoA for modification of an SLSA that has been converted to an ELSA, making compliance with that provision difficult at best.


Assuming that it has been modified, and assuming that the manufacture would not provide a LoA are both are pretty big assumptions. There are other reasons for going ELSA besides making modifications. If it has not been modified it is a moot point anyway.

My main point was that it can be done, and it doesn't require manufacturer's approval. The other key is that it has to be SLSA first, then switched to ELSA to be able to be switched back. If the first certification is ELSA there is no back to switch to.

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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:42 pm

All very interesting.

Also worth remembering is that while the plane was an ELSA, anyone could have legally worked on it, with zero qualifications.

Again, has anyone actually converted to ELSA, flown and maintained the plane for a while, then successfully converted back, either with or without the manufacturer’s involvement?
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:09 pm

I picked up my info from a post on the ctflier site. Here is a link to the thread. http://ctflier.com/topic/4482-elsa-to-s ... ment-66529 The thread starter indicated that this is something new.

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ShawnM
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby ShawnM » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:17 pm

I dont think you'll ever get it back to SLSA status because I dont think any manufacturer would want the liability. If you are not going to ever deviate from the maintenance or SB's and never plan on upgrading or changing anything then why would you convert to ELSA?

In one of your posts you mentioned converting so you could fly IFR AND DO YOUR OWN MAINTENANCE. If you convert from S-LSA to E-LSA and perform ANY maintenance that you are not allowed to do if it were S-LSA you can never go back to S-LSA. How could you prove you did it correctly and didn't cut any corners. This would be difficult.

This thread may give some people false hope that one day they can convert back when they are ready to sell.

This conversion needs to be looked at as a one way street as Fast Eddie and Ron stated.

I converted my SportCruiser to E-LSA because the manufacturer WILL NOT issue LOA's for anything. Mine is a 2007 that had older and discontinued avionics and as S-LSA I was not able to change anything. I submitted paperwork, A LOT OF IT, to CSA and never even received a reply, PERIOD. Nothing from them at all.

I converted last year and it was the best thing I ever did. So glad to be out from under the thumb of a company with poor customer support. I did a complete avionics upgrade and in the process of adding the Garmin GDL-82 ADS-B out unit. None of this would be possible as a S-LSA.

It's a simple love / hate relationship. I love the plane but not the company. :mrgreen:

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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby Warmi » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:53 pm

Good to know.

Their USA dealer (http://www.ussportaircraft.com/) seems to have pretty vibrant operation going on - too bad the factory is so non-responsive.

In my case , for Sting planes there is a rather comprehensive Master Equipment List available from the manufacturer ( http://sting.aero/wp-content/uploads/20 ... Aug-17.pdf) which outlines every piece of equipment that can be installed without an explicit LOA - doesn't Sport Cruiser have something similar ?
Do you need to ping the manufacturer with every potential upgrade ?
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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ShawnM
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Re: New LSA - Bristell, Sting S4, SportCruiser or ?

Postby ShawnM » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:08 pm

Warmi wrote:Good to know.

Their USA dealer (http://www.ussportaircraft.com/) seems to have pretty vibrant operation going on - too bad the factory is so non-responsive.

In my case , for Sting planes there is a rather comprehensive Master Equipment List available from the manufacturer ( http://sting.aero/wp-content/uploads/20 ... Aug-17.pdf) which outlines every piece of equipment that can be installed without an explicit LOA - doesn't Sport Cruiser have something similar ?
Do you need to ping the manufacturer with every potential upgrade ?


The new USA Dealer/ Importer is Cruiser Aircraft in Sebastian Florida. Details on the website. They have taken over as the importer for the US.

It seems that MANY other LSA manufacturers are willing and able to work with their customer base. It's just not so with CSA and the SportCruiser. Don't even think about making any changes to it if you buy one. Unless you convert to E-LSA. :mrgreen:

The SportCruiser does not have a master equipment list like you posted for your Sting. That's a great idea but we dont have anything like that. Our IPC (illustrated parts catalog) shows the complete and latest parts breakdown but it's not laid out like your list.

I tried to "ping" the manufacturer when I wanted to replace my discontinued Garmin 396 with the new Aera 660. I put together a comprehensive 15+ page document outlining EVERYTHING needed for the swap including W&B info, current draw info, wiring diagrams, installation procedures, service info and everything else they wanted and their response was..........................

Ever heard crickets chirping on a warm summer's night? If so you heard more than I did. :mrgreen:

They never acknowledged me at all. Not to say hi, we received your request and will let you know. I got absolutely nothing in response from them. That was over a year ago now.

I converted to E-LSA and NEVER looked back. :D

Since then I have upgraded my GPS, radio, transponder, intercom, voltage regulator, automatic flap controller (designed and built my own), removed the cigarette lighter and installed a dual USB port for my iphone and ipad, hard wired the GDL-39 3D for ADS-B in and I'm now adding the GDL-82 ADS-B out since my airport is inside the Tampa mode C veil. CSA still does not have anything in place for legacy owners without ADS-B.

Couldn't be happier with my plane now.


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