HOLY COW!!!

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Nomore767
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Nomore767 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:16 am

A new RV-12 SLSA costs around $128k, maybe $140k+ if you opt for the latest 912iS model.
Whilst not every member of the middle-class can afford one the price is definitely in the middle, or lower middle, range for new LSAs.
Put this in perspective. The price of new motor home RVs are certainly in the same price range and usually more. Whilst the top end huge Class A motor homes which are hundreds of thousands of dollars, are definitely for the more well off, most Class B diesel vans typically list for $155k+ and Class Cs are not far off. The point I'm making is that I see lots of RV motor homes on I-77 as I drive to my hangar and there are many dealerships in the area with large inventories. They wouldnt be there if there was no demand. These are definitely in the range for many in the middle class at prices in the same range as many LSAs.
Like planes most motor homes need to be stored when not in use and the price of self-storage facilities large enough to accommodate an RV is around $325 per month in my area. Rock Hill airfield near me rents hangars for $350 month. Operating costs to fuel these low mileage vehicles along with overnight campground costs aren't insignificant either.
Whilst RV motor home owners don't bear the expense of obtaining a pilots license I would say that there is no shortage of customers willing and able to pay for, and operate, motorhomes which are comparable to the cost of a large number of LSAs.

The two local lakes have plenty of folks buying pretty pricey boats too most of which require storage and maintenance, maybe not as expensive as some LSAs there are still many middle class families that apparently have the money to buy them too.

Here in the south they love their jacked up pick up trucks with all the bells and whistles many of which are close to, or more than, the price of some used LSAs.
Check out Chevy Suburban new from $55k to $72k+ Silverado with nice options around $47 -$50k

2006 Zodiac $57k 2010 Skycatcher $69k Sport Cruiser $79-122k 2006 CTSW $59 - 70k 2013 CTLS $104k currently for sale on internet with many more listed.

Just saying.

smutny
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:27 am

foresterpoole wrote:I think that is an Apple/Orange comparison. Ford cranks out 100,000+ mustangs a year...


I disagree, because I am not comparing the value, I'm comparing the poor attitude. My point was not to compare the price of a Mustang to an LSA, but rather the rampant attitude of "how dare the manufacturers produce planes I cannot afford". For some odd reason, as a whole, those of us that have been in aviation a while have some pre-conceived notion that all these new airplanes need to be priced on par with the 1970's airframes floating around.

foresterpoole wrote:When is the last time you saw a New (0 hour) SportCruiser or Tecnam advertised with a 6-pack and basic day VFR only? ...but the dealers will never order one like that


Why not then order what one wants? Can you not go to a dealer and order a bare bones model? Will they tell you to take a hike? Is it a law to only purchase what they have in stock?

foresterpoole wrote:I'm dissapointed in folks like Cessna (Textron), they have been cranking out 172's for 50+years you would think they would have that down to a science, but looking at their prices, the opposite could be argued...


While that is partially true, you ignore that the entire supply chain has been crippled by legislation and the insurance industry. If you take out all the those costs, you will find a fairly linear pricing increase of the raw materials, and then the final product, that match the other perceived increases in our lives. Regardless, I'm still seeing brand new Cirrus, Cessna and Cub Crafter products popping up fairly often.

nomore767 has hit the nail on the head with his comment.

rsteele
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby rsteele » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:15 pm


While that is partially true, you ignore that the entire supply chain has been crippled by legislation and the insurance industry. If you take out all the those costs, you will find a fairly linear pricing increase of the raw materials, and then the final product, that match the other perceived increases in our lives. Regardless, I'm still seeing brand new Cirrus, Cessna and Cub Crafter products popping up fairly often


This is pretty broad statement regarding cost apportionment and supply chain. Do you have numbers to back it up?

You seem to take laments that people here can't go out and buy a new plane for anger at the manufacturers. This is something I didn't infer at all from the original comments. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a comment on this board that didn't support companies willing to take the risk of actually building airplanes. Well, with the possible exception of Icon and Terrafugia. I really don't understand your defensive attitude.

Ron

Warmi
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Warmi » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:53 pm

rsteele wrote:

While that is partially true, you ignore that the entire supply chain has been crippled by legislation and the insurance industry. If you take out all the those costs, you will find a fairly linear pricing increase of the raw materials, and then the final product, that match the other perceived increases in our lives. Regardless, I'm still seeing brand new Cirrus, Cessna and Cub Crafter products popping up fairly often


This is pretty broad statement regarding cost apportionment and supply chain. Do you have numbers to back it up?

You seem to take laments that people here can't go out and buy a new plane for anger at the manufacturers. This is something I didn't infer at all from the original comments. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a comment on this board that didn't support companies willing to take the risk of actually building airplanes. Well, with the possible exception of Icon and Terrafugia. I really don't understand your defensive attitude.

Ron


Indeed.
I just bought a plane a month ago for about 110K so I am very much supporting the industry. Still, the fact that the very same plane with a few more ( unnecessary really, but cool ) electronic gadgets ( and minus 150 hours ) costs almost 50 K more seems an unreasonable proposition to me and thus I made my personal choice and expressed my opinion on the matter.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

smutny
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:09 pm

rsteele wrote:This is pretty broad statement regarding cost apportionment and supply chain. Do you have numbers to back it up?


Yes, it was meant to be a broad statement. No, i don't have balance sheets available to provide you. However, if you feel that there is no additional burden today of the costs of doing business vs. 10, 20, 30+ years ago, then the entire discussion is lost upon you. I can say that, overall, the various insurances I pay for my business have increased about 15% over the past 11 years.

rsteele wrote:I really don't understand your defensive attitude.


It's not defensive, it's utter frustration. The airplanes of today are far more advanced than the airplanes of yesterday. I fly a PA-11, the Cubs being put out by Cub Craftes, Legend and event the Aviat Husky, are light years ahead in construction, safety and options. Even from the basic design standpoint, ignoring all the other overhead influences, that some say the cost increases should be linear is absolutely absurd.

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:00 pm

People for whom money is no object have a different perspective than people who don't have unlimited funds. Nobody is arguing that some of today's modern planes aren't very well equipped and probably well worth the price. However, because they are so expensive, most middle class people cannot afford them. That doesn't mean anyone here has a bad attitude. Why do these discussions always turn ugly?

CubCrafters? Who has that kind of money? $218,000 for a basic model modestly equipped. Nobody in the middle class.
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smutny
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:56 pm

TimTaylor wrote:CubCrafters? Who has that kind of money? $218,000 for a basic model modestly equipped. Nobody in the middle class.


You just nailed my point home.

If CC is too high, then look at all the other Cub style aircraft that are out there that fit the budget. There is no reason to slam CC for their pricing, that's akin to slamming Audi for being more expensive the VW as many of their line share the same components and look similar.

Never say nobody, it's all about the choices you make daily on what to spend money on.

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:23 pm

Nobody slammed CubCrafters. I said they are expensive. You're the one that mentioned CubCrafters. Middle class people with kids just get by now days. How many planes do you own, 3? I'm not sure you know how middle class people live in this economy.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:11 pm

I'm older than many on this forum, been flying longer than most, and honestly can't remember a time when new aircraft were ever priced within the reach of the middle class.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
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foresterpoole
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby foresterpoole » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:53 pm

Well Doc I'll agree, but I'll present some data points that might shed some light on this "anxiety" about prices. 1984 median income: $21,082 (US Census Bureau) price of Cessna 172P: $42,460 with the optional avionics upgrade. That's about double the median yearly income. Fast forward 2015: Median income was $56,516 price of a new Cessna 172SP $307,500, now I'm no mathmatics wiz, but that's 5.4x the median income. I'd say that's a big jump. I'll agree there were some court cases in there that Cessna took a liability blood bath in, because of that it appears everyone has raised their prices to match the "liability" factor, still that's one heck of a price jump. Also, I know intrest rates were very high back then, maybe Cessna made some of the difference in loan intrest? I'm not complaining about prices, what I am concerned about is the effects of the higher price to income ratio's on the the long term viability of the industry as a whole. Probably why everyone is going to jets, you have to hook the big fish to win the purse, small fish just are not common enough and don't have the buying power they once had in the market....
Ed

pjdavis
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby pjdavis » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:14 am

"I'll agree there were some court cases in there that Cessna took a liability blood bath in, because of that it appears everyone has raised their prices to match the "liability" factor, still that's one heck of a price jump."

Good Point....I say we change the topic in favor of complaining about why the average person cannot afford to buy a new ladder... :x

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:27 am

pjdavis wrote:"I'll agree there were some court cases in there that Cessna took a liability blood bath in, because of that it appears everyone has raised their prices to match the "liability" factor, still that's one heck of a price jump."

Good Point....I say we change the topic in favor of complaining about why the average person cannot afford to buy a new ladder... :x

Off topic, when is your check ride?
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby pjdavis » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:30 am

TimTaylor wrote:Off topic, when is your check ride?


I don't know. In late April - my CFI told me that we would be concentrating and my check ride prep. He was going to contact the person they use. He said there are 3 of us ready to go. However the DPE is a Captain for United so he told my CFI that once he received his June schedule he would set something up. Well now it is the middle of August and still no word. It is getting frustrating, because my CFI has cut his schedule way down. I took off two weeks at the end of June after I had the runway incident and the airplane was being repaired - then needed a few flights to get my confidence back. My CFI then left for Osh Kosh, another two weeks off, got back up on 8/2 - then he was basically off the schedule all this week, etc. I am going back up next Tuesday and Thursday....I feel like I am spinning my wheels by having long breaks in between flights - feel like I am spending money just to get back into it with no date in sight....I wonder if this is a common problem. I remember what RCPilot went through the long wait and Foresterpoole with the plane down for an engine overhaul. Frustrated.

PJ

Nomore767
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Nomore767 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:35 pm

CubCrafters? Who has that kind of money? $218,000 for a basic model modestly equipped. Nobody in the middle class.[/quote]

Trade a Plane has 4 Cub Crafter Sport Cubs for sale one with 722 hours for $109k and three others with less than 500 hours each with one for $100k and two at around $145k.
Hickory NC has one for checkout and rental at around $110 hour. I know I flew it and did my last Flight Review in it and Brandon does a real great and fun job flying into some neat as well as challenging local grass strips.
Ok not chump change to buy but they are airplanes that can be operated as LSAs at reasonable prices especially versus new.
As I said earlier their prices are similar to the RV motor homes that many in the middle class seem able to buy, operate, and store, judging by the numbers on the interstates and the huge inventories at numerous dealers.

Middle class incomes ranging from $30k to $100k (42%) upper middle class from $100k to $350k (26%). Pew.

Again, just saying.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Howard, we're talking about the price of new airplanes, not used airplanes. Not many middle class people I know could afford your RV-12 when new.
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