HOLY COW!!!

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Jim Hardin
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Jim Hardin » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:18 am

The want is always there but the reality is to define your mission.

I was looking at getting a used one but when I weighed the cost against my expected use, the rental rates and the fixed costs. I found I could buy 500 - 600 hours of rental for the same money.

I am lucky, there are 5 rental LSAs in my area offered by 3 FBOs. For my situation, a no brainer.

smutny
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:15 pm

I don't know why we in aviation always seem to bad mouth aircraft pricing. It's not like the companies pull the numbers out of the air, they're based upon demand and overhead. Do you get on forums and bitch about the price of a Shelby Mustang? Or do you buy the Mustang you can afford?

If the market supports a $125K LSA, OUTSTANDING! A healthy market is a good thing! Never put down people on what they are willing to spend on a toy. Just be glad they are doing it, keeping aircraft in production and keeping the used market in motion.

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Wm.Ince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:22 pm

smutny wrote:I don't know why we in aviation always seem to bad mouth aircraft pricing. It's not like the companies pull the numbers out of the air, they're based upon demand and overhead. Do you get on forums and bitch about the price of a Shelby Mustang? Or do you buy the Mustang you can afford?

If the market supports a $125K LSA, OUTSTANDING! A healthy market is a good thing! Never put down people on what they are willing to spend on a toy. Just be glad they are doing it, keeping aircraft in production and keeping the used market in motion.

How long have you worked in sales? :mrgreen:
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:44 pm

The problem as I see it is airplanes are expensive for a variety of reasons. It was hoped that LSA would provide a lower cost aircraft affordable by a larger segment of the population, however, the LSA manufactures seem to be catering to the "upper income" buyers, once again leaving the middle class priced out. Pricing is not based on cost, it is based on "what the market will bear." As long as there are people willing to spend huge dollars for loaded LSA's, that's what the manufacturers will build. Over time, the used LSA market should provide a larger inventory of affordable LSA aircraft if they hold up and last as long as non-LSA aircraft.
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FastEddieB
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:22 pm

smutny wrote:I don't know why we in aviation always seem to bad mouth aircraft pricing.


I'm not sure that expressing shock (HOLY COW!!!) is exactly the same as bad mouthing.

Part of the reason I was shocked was the rate of the price increase. The case in the OP represented more than a doubling of the price in 10 years. Yes, there have been minor improvements, but nothing that would directly effect the utility of the plane, except maybe slightly increased fuel capacity.
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:25 pm

Wm.Ince wrote:How long have you worked in sales? :mrgreen:


Ha! My father sold planes for a living, not me.

These comments are akin to a bar advertising: "Our beer is warm and peanuts stale!" Who the hell wants to go there? Why the hell is GA stuck in that mindset?

smutny
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:27 pm

FastEddieB wrote:I'm not sure that expressing shock (HOLY COW!!!) is exactly the same as bad mouthing.


Wasn't referencing the title, but the subsequent comments.

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Warmi » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:59 pm

smutny wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:How long have you worked in sales? :mrgreen:


Ha! My father sold planes for a living, not me.

These comments are akin to a bar advertising: "Our beer is warm and peanuts stale!" Who the hell wants to go there? Why the hell is GA stuck in that mindset?


What mindset ? People discussing prices and making informed decisions is the very definition of a free market you were talking about.
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TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:07 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
smutny wrote:I don't know why we in aviation always seem to bad mouth aircraft pricing.


I'm not sure that expressing shock (HOLY COW!!!) is exactly the same as bad mouthing.

Part of the reason I was shocked was the rate of the price increase. The case in the OP represented more than a doubling of the price in 10 years. Yes, there have been minor improvements, but nothing that would directly effect the utility of the plane, except maybe slightly increased fuel capacity.

Rule of 72. 72/10 years = 7.2 percent increase per year. Seems high, but IDK.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby smutny » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:08 pm

Warmi wrote:What mindset ? People discussing prices and making informed decisions is the very definition of a free market you were talking about.


Seriously? You read through all those negative comments and call it "informed decisions"? SMH Somebody interested in flying reads through that crap and they'll go buy a boat instead. GA has got to stop slitting it's own wrists. Last time I flew, it was fun.

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:16 pm

smutny wrote:
Warmi wrote:What mindset ? People discussing prices and making informed decisions is the very definition of a free market you were talking about.


Seriously? You read through all those negative comments and call it "informed decisions"? SMH Somebody interested in flying reads through that crap and they'll go buy a boat instead. GA has got to stop slitting it's own wrists. Last time I flew, it was fun.

Seems like you're missing the point. It's fun, but too expensive for most people. Therein lies the problem.
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foresterpoole
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby foresterpoole » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:23 pm

smutny wrote:I don't know why we in aviation always seem to bad mouth aircraft pricing. It's not like the companies pull the numbers out of the air, they're based upon demand and overhead. Do you get on forums and bitch about the price of a Shelby Mustang? Or do you buy the Mustang you can afford?

If the market supports a $125K LSA, OUTSTANDING! A healthy market is a good thing! Never put down people on what they are willing to spend on a toy. Just be glad they are doing it, keeping aircraft in production and keeping the used market in motion.


I think that is an Apple/Orange comparison. Ford cranks out 100,000+ mustangs a year, models that range from 4 cylinder bare bones to loaded leather V8 monster Shelby's. To your point the companies don't pul pricingl out of thin air, but they do face a couple of issuesa in my mind. One, they are a low volume manufacturing model, so to compensate for low volume they will HAVE to ask more for them to make it cost effective. They also will crank out more "high end" models becasue that is where the better margins are. so my complaint (and this goes for LSA manufacturers, and GA as well) is you can't hardly find a new aircraft without some amount of options or electronics that do add to the price. When is the last time you saw a New (0 hour) SportCruiser or Tecnam advertised with a 6-pack and basic day VFR only? Now before you cruisify me, I know you can spec them on factory websites bare bones, but the dealers will never order one like that, they all order (and thus advertise) the higher margin models because, through no fault of their own, that's what a customer who buys at the dealer or at an airshow is looking for: ramp appeal.

One other point before I get off my soapbox, the major aircraft manufacturers took a huge hit in the recession, no one was buying, especially piston single engine aircraft. I don't fault companies like Cessna or Cirrus for designing or concentrating on their small personel/buisness jets, that market is more stable and the folks that buy those aircraft are (in most cases) more recession/depression proof than the rest of us. The sales are not sellar, but they are steady. That having been said, if you want a customer base, you can't price yourself out of the market and expect to keep a buisness viable. Eventually, something's got to give you either drop the price and increase volume or you keep raising the price until you literally price yourself out of the market and simply drop the model line. I'm a big fan of automation and lean manufacturing, that's hard to do in aviation, but it's not impossible. I'm dissapointed in folks like Cessna (Textron), they have been cranking out 172's for 50+years you would think they would have that down to a science, but looking at their prices, the opposite could be argued, they simply price the aircraft based on how many they sell and to maintain the same revenue stream for the model, not the actual unit price to build. Again, just my 2 cents and that won't buy you a coffee at Starbucks, though if anyone ever gets down to 2L0 or AEX I might pick your coffee up and we can talk flying while we enjoy...
Ed

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Wm.Ince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:41 pm

There is an LSA targeted to middle income enthusiasts, it's called an RV-12. And it is a good airplane.
Bill Ince
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TimTaylor
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:45 pm

Wm.Ince wrote:There is an LSA targeted to middle income enthusiasts, it's called an RV-12. And it is a good airplane.

I disagree. What middle income people can afford a new RV-12 SLSA? How many can even afford the kits and have time to build one? Most middle income people I know, both parents are working and trying to afford to raise a couple kids.
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3Dreaming
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:47 pm

There are sub $100,000 SLSA available, but they are not the fast sleek airplanes that most seem to want.


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