HOLY COW!!!

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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FastEddieB
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HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:33 pm

I just came across this ad:

Image

10 short years ago my Sky Arrow sold for $75.5k, nicely equipped. At the time, that still seemed to me like a fair chunk of change for a Light Sport. I thought new ones now were about $110k to $115k.

Sure, there are some minor improvements, but it's largely the same plane.

I don't know if they'll sell any at this price. If there's any silver lining, maybe this will put some upward pressure on the value of my 2007!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:15 pm

Asking prices don't mean much, Eddie. The plane is worth exactly what somebody actually pays for it - no more, no less.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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FastEddieB
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:59 am

drseti wrote:Asking prices don't mean much, Eddie. The plane is worth exactly what somebody actually pays for it - no more, no less.


True, of course, but this is the US distributor. I'm assuming that's the new list price.

I may call to confirm.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

pjdavis
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby pjdavis » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:30 am

Something like this would be good to post in the current threat "Is Sport Aviation Dying" I train in a Bristell and the sales material they had with them at Oshkosh had a new one priced at $231,000. I think for a LSA that is way to much to attract new people with hopes to own an airplane. I realize it was dressed to the hilt - but the cost of flying and airplane ownership has surpassed my hopes.

PJ

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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Warmi » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:57 am

From my experience ( admittedly quite limited, buying just one LSA ) , as I was advised on this forum, prices for new LSA models are just sky high and , unless money is no concern, getting a used plane with low hours ( as in my case 150 hours ) would knock the price down by about 1/3 or 1/4 which is much more reasonable.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:30 am

The market produces what the buyers demand. They take a perfectly good $100k LSA, and then add dual glass, dual WAAS GPS, dual ADAHARS, dual backup batteries, soft-start modules, xm satellite radio and wx, cordless noise cancelling headsets, memory foam contoured seats, self-flexing prop, climate control, a 3 axis autopilot, yaw dampener, fuel injected engine, parachute, leather interior, ADS-B in and out, and 3-axis electric trim. Now nobody can afford it, and there's no payload left - but that's what the customers at the Oshkosh booth said they wanted!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
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drdehave
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drdehave » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:06 am

Holy Cow, that title gets attention!
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FastEddieB
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:16 am

I was about to make much the same point.

When I first heard about Light Sport, I envisioned basic planes for about the same price as a new Lexus or Acura. I was thinking about $50k or $60k. While not exactly bargain basement prices, still within reach of much of middle America. The $75.5k for my Sky Arrow was just at the limit of what I wanted to spend at the time for a Light Sport.

And yet the market spoke, wanting many or all of the gadgets the professor listed above. But for a plane that will only see day VFR flight, those options add little or no real utility. I might even suggest that some of them actually detract from the elemental joy of flying.

But it is what it is. I just think these nosebleed prices may end up stunting the growth of Light Sport, especially with BasicMed opening up the option of used certificated planes with a lot more utility - and a lower price - to many pilots. Including me.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

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Nomore767
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:45 am

drseti wrote:The market produces what the buyers demand. They take a perfectly good $100k LSA, and then add dual glass, dual WAAS GPS, dual ADAHARS, dual backup batteries, soft-start modules, xm satellite radio and wx, cordless noise cancelling headsets, memory foam contoured seats, self-flexing prop, climate control, a 3 axis autopilot, yaw dampener, fuel injected engine, parachute, leather interior, ADS-B in and out, and 3-axis electric trim. Now nobody can afford it, and there's no payload left - but that's what the customers at the Oshkosh booth said they wanted!


Excellent and accurate points.

I think in many regards some buyers will always want what the manufacturers tell them they need.
If you ask most prospective LSA buyers what their "mission" is I'll bet it's not much different from mine. I wanted a modern , cost effective, economical, fun to fly, easy to get in/out of the hangar, made in USA, easy to refuel, good avionics, and no expensive and heavy needless frills.
So, I bought a new RV-12 SLSA and flew it home from the factory. In 2014 it was $125k and empty weight is 765lbs. All metal. I got all the options included in that price including paint.
My hangar neighbor built his exactly like mine. Took him 6 years and it's still unpainted but he's spent considerably less than I did.

Vans is currently offering the RV-12 with a choice of engines the 912ULS or the 912iS engine and with the latter and either dual SkyView or dual Garmin G3x screens the latest factory price I heard was around $148k , either way a ton of money less than some top end LSAs which incidentally perform the same 'mission' just for a whole lot more of your money.

My point is, if you specifically define your personal flying mission, decide what you really 'need', and realistically look at real world costs you can fly Light Sport at significantly more affordable costs that quarter of a million dollar heavy LSA.

That said I have an autopilot that I don't really 'need' but it's nice if I need to have a sandwich and soda on a long cross country. My SkyView has HITs which are little boxes on the screen you fly through... never use it . It has synthetic vision... never use it. But they come with SkyView anyway.

There are a few used RV-12sLSAs for sale at around $95k with pretty low hours, and ELSAs are even less. The Sky Arrow that Eddie mentions as the thread starter still isn't bad compared to some top end models. The new Glasair Merlin is around the same price.
Looking back I could have saved myself good money by waiting for a lightly used RV-12 SLSA.

If you do your homework, realistically define your needs, and stay away from the temptations of buying what you don't need and will never use you can actually enjoy light sport flying fairly economically.

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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:15 am

Nomore767 wrote: I wanted a modern , cost effective, economical, fun to fly, easy to get in/out of the hangar, made in USA, easy to refuel, good avionics, and no expensive and heavy needless frills.


Well, Howard, the RV-12 sure seems to have been the perfect choice to fill your needs/wants. (All except the made in USA part. You ended up with an Austrian engine, German carbs, and an Italian electronic ignition system...) ;)

All jest aside, I've always liked the RV-12, even before I flew Mitch's. Had they been available as SLSA 8 years ago, I would have gone that route for my flight school.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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FastEddieB
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:40 am

drdehave wrote:Holy Cow, that title gets attention!


Were you thinking..,

Image
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

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Nomore767
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Nomore767 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:43 am

Well, Howard, the RV-12 sure seems to have been the perfect choice to fill your needs/wants. (All except the made in USA part. You ended up with an Austrian engine, German carbs, and an Italian electronic ignition system...) ;)

Paul,

Thanks... yes I did make a great choice and I'm very happy with it.

BTW I did buy the 'United Nations Edition'!

All kidding aside - a big factor in the ' made in USA' comment was that the airframe is made in USA and the SLSA is assembled fairly close to Vans. You can pick up the phone and speak to techs at Vans who are also extremely knowledgeable about the engine and it's components.
Also the VAF Vans Air Force website has been a fantastic resource as fas as advice, tips and just plain learning about the airframe as well as the avionics and engine.

Warmi
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby Warmi » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:17 pm

Interestingly , I saw sky arrow 600 from 2007 with 300 hours available for about 70k - which is similar to what FastEddie paid for his plane - in other words he could probably still sell his for not much less than he bought it back then.
Of course 2017 75k is not the same as 2007 75k but still....
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

foresterpoole
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby foresterpoole » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:56 pm

Wow, I knew Bristell and Sport Cruisers were getting up there. Like Doc said, options galore, I guess this is what the "market" dictated. However, it's kind of sobering to think I bought my 3 bedroom 2 bath 8 year old 1300 sqft house for $40,000 less.

I just think its crazy that the "low price alternative" in general aviation is really turning out to be anything but low price. You can get a new 172SP for 380k so I guess 150k for an LSA is not too out of line, but it's still out of reach for most "middle class" families I know...
Ed

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drseti
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Re: HOLY COW!!!

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:53 pm

foresterpoole wrote: it's still out of reach for most "middle class" families I know...


Sadly, aviation never really was a middle class pursuit.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying


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