My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
drdehave
Posts: 356
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Davis, CA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby drdehave » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:03 pm

3Dreaming's Comments, above.

Those are excellent comments, I hadn't considered. I can learn something here! I especially like: "Talk to that particular airplane." And I think I should be saying: "Such-n-such plane, do you mind extending upwind slightly, so we'll have better spacing in the downwind," or something, as I approach. So yes, I agree, I should be dealing specifically, instead of just sending out "blanket" radio info and expecting everyone to not only hear it, but fit it into my perception of how the world ought to operate. So yes, I guess we're 100% on the same page, there. Thanks!
Sting Flight (Flying the Sting LSA)
http://www.youtube.com/user/9162069934/featured

foresterpoole
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:28 pm
Location: Alexandria, LA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby foresterpoole » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:24 pm

At a busy airport (non-towered) it can be tough in my very limited experience. Add to that different aircraft types have different approach speeds and it really gets complicated. While I was doing pattern work at a non towered ILS approach airport A King-Air called and stated he was on a long final for the ILS. I had just departed the same runway, by the time I was midfield downwind, he was 5 miles out, instructor said just slow down a bit and watch this. I watched the guy make a beautiful landing by the time I was just barely turning base to final. I bet if I was in front of him putting along at 55-60 knots he would have lost his marbles or had to abort/delay his landing. I feel like on a King Air forum somewhere that guy's pet peeve is "that little Tecna whatever that thing is flying the pattern at a snails pace."
Ed

User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 1733
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby MrMorden » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:52 am

foresterpoole wrote:I bet if I was in front of him putting along at 55-60 knots he would have lost his marbles or had to abort/delay his landing. I feel like on a King Air forum somewhere that guy's pet peeve is "that little Tecna whatever that thing is flying the pattern at a snails pace."


That may be true. However, the King Air is not any more entitled to use of the airport than you are in your tiny Tecnam. I always try to accommodate faster traffic by extending/delaying/whatever is needed, but that is a courtesy and not a requirement. They have to cycle in and maintain separation just like us little guys.

On the way to Oshkosh, we diverted quite a bit for weather and ended up at Quad City airport (Class C) on the Illinois/Iowa border. The wind was howling (24kt I believe, right down the runway), and the Tower called a 5 mile final for me. When we got closer we saw two airliners stacked up at the hold short line, waiting for me to hurry up and land at my ground speed of probably 30-35kt. I'm sure they were frustrated with the wait, but I was doing exactly as instructed by ATC, and had just as much right to be there as they did.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

User avatar
zaitcev
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:38 pm
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby zaitcev » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:37 pm

drdehave wrote:Nevertheless, what seems to happen at least a third of the time, is this. I get to the 1- or 2-mile mark, just before turning downwind and the curcuit-worker turns to crosswind, from his favorite upwind spot, directly towards me! It always surprises me that an instructor hasn’t instilled in her (or him) that simply extending upwind a bit is not only a courteous thing to do, but a smart one to improve safety through better spacing.


If they turn directly towards you, you're still going to beat then off. As likely as not they're still climbing at this point and you're at least level if not descending. Just go on and do your pattern, they're going to be there bouncing in your wake, unless they fly a modded RV with IO-520. What are they gonna do, try to cut you off at base? Impossible if you keep it tight.

If they turn downwind so that you converge and they have the performance to catch up, you have to lose. Just suck it up, pull the power back. In LSAs that we fly it's going to be trivial to slow down and let them continue. At least it never was an issue for me.

User avatar
drdehave
Posts: 356
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Davis, CA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby drdehave » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:32 pm

Okay, here’s another one (PP) that frequently has me shaking my head: Flyers who enter the non-towered airport environs around here, seemingly clueless about existing Notams.

I’ve seen it many times, when: 1. a temporary tower has been established (air shows, fire suppression, etc.); 2. a frequency or runway number has been changed; 3. the airport is closed; 4. a runway is closed; and 5. when all kinds of smaller, less-important issues (AWOS down, lights out, hazzards from airport farming operations, etc) are pending.

In every instance I recall, nothing appeared on Skyvector (i.e., any TFR). Nevertheless, any formal (Flight Service/Duats) or informal (using one’s favorite subscription weather service) point-to-point weather briefing revealed the Notam(s) in question.

One example this fall really took the cake! Willows airport (KWLW), north of Sacramento, closed the main 34/16 runway for about 4 months during resurfacing work (I have no idea why it took so long); the shorter 31/13 runway remained open. WLW has a diner a few feet off the tarmac which is popular with flyers and I go there a lot. On every trip I made there during the closure, including near the end of the 4-month period, at least one-third to one-half of incoming aircraft set-up (and announced) for their usual 34/16 landings, unaware of the closure, despite a Notam for it appearing on every daily pre-flight briefing I did.

Once, I listened as a guy actually landed, despite being informed it was closed. Afterwards, there was a long period of silence. Finally, somebody asked: “Well, was it still closed?” After maybe a 30-second pause, his reply was, “Well no, there was no X on the runway-–only one in the grass, off to one side.” I suspect he was still trying to figure out how to extricate his airplane from the runway, since all the connecting taxiways were blocked by sandbags, cones, and sawhorses. Another thing I’m more certain of. He probably spent a good amount of time later cleaning all the wet asphalt goo off the bottom of his wings and fuselage, since a final “top-coat” had just been applied that morning, necessitating that the “X” be moved aside.

All of which leads me to conclude that at least around here, a whole lot of seat-of-the-pants, jump-in-the-airplane-and-go flying goes on, without much effort given to the briefings (formal or self) necessary to help gain all pertinent knowledge about the flight. How else would so many important Notams go un-noticed?
Sting Flight (Flying the Sting LSA)
http://www.youtube.com/user/9162069934/featured

Wm.Ince
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby Wm.Ince » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:57 pm

eyeflygps wrote:I don't really have any pet peeves in regards to flying. I have enough to do to keep myself informed and as safe as possible to worry about someone else. You can't control other people so you need to watch out that they don't run into you.
. . . Now, these internet forums...that's a different story!

Right on . . . totally concur.
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

sandpiper
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: Independence, Oregon
Contact:

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby sandpiper » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:40 pm

Agree with Andy. At uncontrolled airports with more than one runway, taxi transmissions are mostly unnecessary.

Another call not really necessary at a single runway airport is stating "clear of the active". Unless the runway is 3 miles long, arriving traffic can see the runway is clear.

Also the word "active". Do uncontrolled airports have "active" runways?

I know, picky picky. Too much time on my hands. :D
John Horn
Independence Airpark (7S5), OR
CFII, LSRM-A
Rotax Service, Maint, and Heavy Maint. trained
Flying a CTSW, building an RV-12

3Dreaming
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:09 pm

sandpiper wrote:Agree with Andy. At uncontrolled airports with more than one runway, taxi transmissions are mostly unnecessary.

Another call not really necessary at a single runway airport is stating "clear of the active". Unless the runway is 3 miles long, arriving traffic can see the runway is clear.

Also the word "active". Do uncontrolled airports have "active" runways?

I know, picky picky. Too much time on my hands. :D


I often see and hear people report clear of the active as they are making their turn of the runway. I often point out to former students and tenants of the airport, that you are not really clear of the runway until you cross the hold short line.
I will also point out to people who call right traffic that our airport has left traffic for all runways.

User avatar
dstclair
Posts: 948
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am
Location: Allen, TX

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby dstclair » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:58 pm

Another call not really necessary at a single runway airport is stating "clear of the active". Unless the runway is 3 miles long, arriving traffic can see the runway is clear.
I think it depends on the runway. T31's single runway essentially has no perpendicular taxiways to egress the runway other than at each end. The runway is relatively short (2950') but is slightly mounded in the middle such that it is not possible to see when an aircraft taxis off the runway from the other end of the runway (waiting to depart). There would be several situations where the waiting aircraft would never see the landing aircraft depart the runway so saying 'clear the active' is quite necessary.
dave

sandpiper
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:48 pm
Location: Independence, Oregon
Contact:

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby sandpiper » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:36 pm

Dave - agree. For sure these are not "one size fits all' situations.
John Horn
Independence Airpark (7S5), OR
CFII, LSRM-A
Rotax Service, Maint, and Heavy Maint. trained
Flying a CTSW, building an RV-12

eulereit
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby eulereit » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:04 pm

CharlieTango wrote:Last flight I was on a 2 mile left base for Runway 09 at Mammoth Yosemite Airport and a Gulfstream calls 'Yosemite' traffic and states he is on downwind for Runway 19.

I respond by asking which airport and runway he was using (there are 3 'Yosemite' airports) and it became runway 19 at Mammoth. I saw what I though was him a mile above doing at least 200 knots. I said that I was on 2 mile left base for niner and asked if that would work out for him and he said that he didn't know and that he was pretty big.


KMMH does not have a runway 19.

3Dreaming
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:11 pm

eulereit wrote:
CharlieTango wrote:Last flight I was on a 2 mile left base for Runway 09 at Mammoth Yosemite Airport and a Gulfstream calls 'Yosemite' traffic and states he is on downwind for Runway 19.

I respond by asking which airport and runway he was using (there are 3 'Yosemite' airports) and it became runway 19 at Mammoth. I saw what I though was him a mile above doing at least 200 knots. I said that I was on 2 mile left base for niner and asked if that would work out for him and he said that he didn't know and that he was pretty big.


KMMH does not have a runway 19.


I think that was the point.

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2136
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:21 pm

Glad this resurfaced...I meant to comment.

As a datapoint, my habit is to overfly nontowered airports midfield about 500' above pattern altitude, then widen out on the downwind side and descend so as to enter at pattern altitude midfield at a 45° angle. My patterns tend to be in pretty close. It's been my habit for just over 40 years and how I taught my students.

Most of my flying is into and out of non-towered airports, and I literally cannot remember the last time I was in any way annoyed or inconvenienced - or peeved - by other traffic. I seem to always have plenty of time to see and/or hear what they're up to and massage my entry and pattern to accomdate theirs. Even if theirs is unconventional - straight in or wrong direction or base entry or whatever.

Maybe it's a regional thing, or something else is different, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

Wm.Ince
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby Wm.Ince » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:59 pm

FastEddieB wrote:. . . "As a datapoint, my habit is to overfly nontowered airports midfield about 500' above pattern altitude, then widen out on the downwind side and descend so as to enter at pattern altitude midfield at a 45° angle. My patterns tend to be in pretty close. It's been my habit for just over 40 years and how I taught my students.

. . . I literally cannot remember the last time I was in any way annoyed or inconvenienced - or peeved - by other traffic. I seem to always have plenty of time to see and/or hear what they're up to and massage my entry and pattern to accomdate theirs. Even if theirs is unconventional - straight in or wrong direction or base entry or whatever.
Maybe it's a regional thing, or something else is different, but I just wanted to throw that out there."

Concur Eddie. That's the same experience I have had.
I also like your technique on pattern entry. That withstanding, in aviation and maritime, there are exceptions for just about everything. Good pilots adapt to the situation . . . without compromising safety.
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

rgstubbsjr
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 5:54 pm
Location: DXR - Danbury CT

Re: My Biggest Pet Peeve: Pattern Cyclers Who...

Postby rgstubbsjr » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:45 am

Like MrMorden, I will practice landing and taking off, and I can be a little extreme about it.
I will fly every possible variation of a take off and landing the plane is capable of. Sometimes I will spend 2 hours in the pattern doing it, especially if it's a new type, or something I haven't flown in a few years. I know it bores the heck out of the people in the tower, and I feel for them a little. At the end of the proverbial day it's my backside in the seat, and I'm all about making sure that backside gets to go home and have a Bushmills at the end of the actual day. That means constantly honing my skills.

I may have told this story:
Four or five years ago: It was a beautiful, no wind day, so I was practicing crosswind takeoffs and landings. Wing down at various angles, sometimes as far as I could get it, rudder pointing at the sky. I must have done a dozen on both sides.
I taxi back and a guy comes into the FBO and SCREAMS at me.
"What the "F" is wrong with you!"
"Are you some kind of some kind of psychopath!"
"It's people like you that give us pilots a bad reputation!"
Says me: "Um, I was practicing crosswind techniques?"
"There was NO wind! There was no F ING wind!"
"I'm reporting you to the FAA!"
I picked up the phone and dialed the tower:" Here you go, my dime."
At this point the other guys in the FBO started howling with laughter. He spit, sputtering, and turned beet red, then stormed out.
I understand he tore up a plane in a botched 5 knot crosswind a couple of years later.


Return to “Light Sport Aircraft”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests