New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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foresterpoole
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New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby foresterpoole » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:07 pm

While I waited for my CFI I ran into another CFI and his student stopping on a cross country. We struck up a conversation and he asked what I was flying that day. When I said the P-92 Echo Super outside and gestured at the plane, he chuckled and gave me the old "just go private" lecture, backed up by his student. I'm not saying I won't go private later, but right now the LSA fits my "mission" and the possibly of affording a relatively newer (in comparison to say a very well used C172 from the 70's) aircraft that also fits my mission and budget. At any rate he did not change my mind, but something he said perked my ears: "in a few months when the new medical rules go into effect all these LSA's will be 1/2 price anyway.". His reasoning: "the folks buying them are old pilots forced out of the heavier aircraft by the possibility of loosing their medicals, and once they can get back into their Pipers and Cessna's their going to sell these toys and the market will be flooded". OK I don't appreciate the aircraft I'm flying called a toy or being talked down to by the 16 year old student in aviators, but putting that aside, does he have a point? Is the 3rd class medical reform the nail in coffin for LSA prices and manufacturing, this may be a "loaded crowd" but I know a few folks on here have PPL's of higher, what's your thoughts???
Ed

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:11 pm

It sounds like a CFI who doesn't have a clue about LSA's.

foresterpoole
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby foresterpoole » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:13 pm

I currently do not have a medical, but I could pass without any sweat, the only issue was my gallbladder removal two years ago, but I have all the post-op and followup records that would be required according to the AOPA folks I talked to showing full recovery. I've really been waiting for the rule to go into effect, if I read the information correctly it appears imminent, but it's not yet final. One other factor is I want this to be a fun hobby, something for me to enjoy. I'm not saying I'd never want to fly at night or IFR one day, but for right now it's not something I'm considering as a necessity. I love to fly, in my area small airports and an hour or two a month is more than enough enjoyment for me after I get a licence. I can always accrue hours and put that towards the PPL. I'll have to look, but I think the P-92 can fly at night, but not IFR...
Ed

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby Merlinspop » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:49 am

You should have told that CFI that he's clearly putting his MBA to good use.
- Bruce

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby MackAttack » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:09 am

I agree with eyeflygps. If you can afford it, I would get the 3d class medical sorted out now and get your private certificate. You can still fly the P92 all you want, and night currency is easy to maintain or re-establish if you like. My last medical was well over 10 years ago ... and due to some current medical issues and medications, it may be a while (if ever) before I am willing to take the risk and try to re-establish my medical, although that remains a possibility for me.

The total time investment is usually about the same by the time all is said and done. But that's entirely up to you. I will say that flying at night is definitely cool and takes a little pressure off a long cross-country (especially in the winter months when daylight is shorter) to limit your trips to the civil twilight and daylight hours.

However, there is no wrong choice here - it's a matter of preference.

As to aircraft prices, I do think we may see some decline in new LSA sales and an uptick in used LSA sales as some sport pilots are able to return to flying certificated aircraft because they have a medical within the last 10 years... However, some of them will still have disqualifying conditions or medications ... you are still precluded from flying in those circumstances regardless of your medical so some of those folks will probably just keep flying their LSAs.

Also, there has been a large pool of older certificated, steam gauge aircraft available for very reasonable prices ... but those will become increasingly less valuable because of the ADS-B upgrade requirements; e.g., fewer people will buy 40-year old 172s/Beechcraft/Pipers, etc. if you have to invest $5k-plus to upgrade them to ADS-B out of the box (never mind the other issues of older aircraft).

So, on balance, I don't see major changes in the used aircraft market; but that's just one man's opinion.

Cheers

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Half Fast
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby Half Fast » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:17 pm

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone actually in that situation, so I hope Fast Eddie is reading this thread.

Eddie, are you considering selling that lovely Sky Arrow to pick up a 40 year old Cherokee?
1/2
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av8tor
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby av8tor » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:38 pm

FAR § 61.53, prohibits all pilots — those who are required to hold airman medical certificates and those who are not--from exercising privileges during periods of medical deficiency. The FAA revised § 61.53 to include under this prohibition sport pilots who use a current and valid U.S. driver's license as medical qualification. Seems to me that if you have a medical condition that would keep you from getting a 3d class medical certificate then you might have a condition that would preclude exercising sport pilot privileges as well.

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:37 pm

Just a couple of years ago, used LSA prices really took a nose dive due to the recession, reason being some owners needed to lighten the toy box and reduces expenses. I don't think the new medical rules will have much impact on the prices but there may be some good deals to be had on a case-by-case basis. Regarding the original post, many GA aircraft can be regarded as "Toys" - if used solely for recreational purposes. Think Lamborgini not used for racing. Psycho-babble: Those lacking self-confidence will often try to "talk down" others. Now lastly, regarding Sport vs Private, after 48 hours of getting nowhere with Sport, I am seriously considering the Private. All reasons given are good, but let me add one more. It's a heck of a lot easier to find planes and instructors! If you decide to go for a 3rd class medical, contact the AME first and see if a "screening" can be in order. Our AME generously offered, saying if I failed no report would go forward, but if I passed, all was said and done. I went for it and failed. More $$, paper, and time wasted getting that overturned.

foresterpoole
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby foresterpoole » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:37 am

Wow , this was some great info! I think the consensus is that the LSA's should still be around and prices may dip a little but won't tank. As for medical, I'm thinking about this based on the comments: go ahead and keep flying the P-92, get my 3rd class medical and just use it for the PPL except for the 3 hours of instrument, I can hop back to the 172 for that. I think what motivated me to dump the 172 in the first place was it's age, condition, and price per hour. When I was flying it the CFI reached over to change the radio frequency and the knob fell off in his had. Being prepared he had a multitool handy, but that and the oil burn gave me some pause. The newer lower hour P92 really looked good then...
Ed

foresterpoole
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby foresterpoole » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:18 pm

It's got a Garmin nav radio, but I'm pretty sure it's GPS only, no VOR.
Ed

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:13 pm

eyeflygps wrote:I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure you can get your instrument training in the Tecnam also since it will be done in VFR conditions under a hood. Does it have a Nav radio with VOR? If not, then probably no. It's been a while since I looked at the Private instrument requirements.


You can do all your private pilot flight training and checkride in a airplane that only has a GPS for navigation.

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FastEddieB
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:56 pm

Half Fast wrote:It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone actually in that situation, so I hope Fast Eddie is reading this thread.

Eddie, are you considering selling that lovely Sky Arrow to pick up a 40 year old Cherokee?


Sorry for the delay responding.

Not planning to sell the Sky Arrow. At this point, the point of flying is just to have fun, and do it relatively cheaply. The Sky Arrow fits that bill.

Today, for instance, 2.0 Hobbs flying to Blairsville for a Chili Fly-In and then up to our property in TN to check on the land clearing:

Image

Image

Image

A whole lotta fun for maybe 12 gals of mogas!

A more capable cross country plane might beckon once PBOR2 goes into effect.

But...

It would be very hard to go back to owning a plane where I had to find and hire an A&P for making most repairs. Not bragging, but no mechanic has touched my plane since Roger did the rubber parts change in 2012*. My annuals, which I can do myself, typically run under $100. Plus there's the pride in keeping everything "just so" on my own plane.

*To be fair, I did send my carbs to Roger for overhaul a couple years ago. I've overhauled BING's before, but felt more comfortable having him do them, due to his experience.
Fast Eddie B.
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roger lee
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby roger lee » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:51 pm

I don't think you'll see many changes. Most that have LSA don't want bulkier, old technology, replacement part hog, more expensive to maintain 50 year old planes. If people wanted to fly those there are plenty of people that have medicals that aren't flying them due to cost mainly. LSA continues to climb at approx. 12% and GA down by 8%.
For instance a Flight Design CTLSi has better performance and instrumentation than a 172. The panels now would practically rival a learjet with its 10" Skyviews, AP, huge Garmins and synthetic vision.
People don't want to go backwards.
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FastEddieB
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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:06 am

roger lee wrote:People don't want to go backwards.


Many don't.

Yet take a look at some who went flying on a beautiful fall day in the GA/TN mountains.

In my panorama yesterday at Blairsville, GA, left to right are, I believe, a Piper Colt, a couple Cubs, a Champ, and a Cessna 140.

There's a (sizable?) contingent of pilots who actually enjoy going "backwards". Won't necessarily go fast, but that's often not the point. Glass panels are certainly cool - my Cirrus had what was state-of-the-art glass in 2003 - but for day VFR a single Garmin handheld will get you wherever you want to go, not to mention even a J3 has a "glass cockpit" if you have an iPad or similar along.

Different strokes!
Fast Eddie B.

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Re: New medical law mrans cheap LSA's?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:39 am

roger lee wrote:I don't think you'll see many changes. Most that have LSA don't want bulkier, old technology, replacement part hog, more expensive to maintain 50 year old planes.


Roger, LSA covers any aircraft the meet the definition. I would bet that older type certified aircraft that meet the definition outnumber new SLSA and ELSA.


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