"Real World" Performance

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:45 pm

When I was talking about a detour I was referring to both the speed of GA aircraft vs LSA and the limitations of the current LSA rules concerning pilots in class B, C, and D airspace. I can probably get checked out in D, since that is what's close, but C and B would be a trip to fly and get training in and both Tampa and Orlando are both B on the sectional and my guess is that's pretty congested. If I had a B sign-off or a PPL I could fly through Orlando's airspace and through Pensacola/Tallahassee and not have to fly around them.
Ed

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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:18 pm

foresterpoole wrote: I can probably get checked out in D, since that is what's close, but C and B would be a trip to fly and get training in and both Tampa and Orlando are both B on the sectional and my guess is that's pretty congested.


That's probably prudent, but I believe not absolutely necessary by the letter of the FAR. A student pilot would need separate sign-offs for each, but once you have your Sport certificate, if you get an endorsement for any one of the three you're endorsed for all three. Get your ticket at an untowered field, get instruction and an endorsement at a sleepy delta, and you're legal to go play dodge-plane and radio man in the Tampa bravo.

Realistically, I don't particularly want to fly through Orlando's bravo without having a CFI do it with me first.

Flying over controlled airspace isn't always an option. Our clouds have been around 2000' much of the summer; too low to fly over Jacksonville's 4000' charlie.
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rcpilot
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby rcpilot » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:40 pm

eyeflygps wrote: That doesn't necessarily mean you will get cleared through the class B. They will sometimes tell you to stay clear of the class B.

Funny you should mention that. I told my instructor I wanted to make a trip to KVAY. One, my mom lives in NJ so I'll likely be flying there, I wanted to possibly use the previous mechanic who is based there and I figured I get some experience going through the JFK Class B(I verified that the previous owner had flown through the class B to get to me). His response was we'll fly under it(which basically means flying 400' over the beach at some point). When I initially asked about flying through it he said they probably wouldn't clear us. The alternatives are a long flight over open ocean or going around the class B. He seems to like flying low over the beach but quite frankly I'd rather not. We're holding off my controlled airspace endorsement till after my check ride(one last thing the DPE can quiz me on). Anyway, we're hoping if we file a flight plan it will facilitate them letting us through the class B around JFK.

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FastEddieB
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:50 pm

Half Fast wrote:That's probably prudent, but I believe not absolutely necessary by the letter of the FAR. A student pilot would need separate sign-offs for each, but once you have your Sport certificate, if you get an endorsement for any one of the three you're endorsed for all three.


I don't think that's right.

My impression is that each would require ground and flight training specific to the airspace privileges sought.

At least that's how I read the "or" in the below FAA-suggested Sport Pilot endorsement.

"6. Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From, Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: §61.325
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

Unless I'm missing something - you're probably more current on some of this stuff than I am!
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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:07 pm

Eddie, as I understand it, what you wrote is correct for a sport pilot student. It's taken from FAR 61.94, which is for students seeking a sport pilot license.

For a certified sport pilot seeking to add the airspace endorsement, though, FAR 61.325 applies.

61.325 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft at an airport within, or in airspace within, Class B, C, and D airspace, or in other airspace with an airport having an operational control tower?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.



To me, it seems like that doesn't require separate endorsements for each after you have the basic sport ticket.

Of course, I've been wrong before (just ask my wife). And the FAA certainly could've written a clearer reg.
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FastEddieB
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:12 pm

Here's where I found that recommended endorsement, for a Sport Pilot:

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/sport_pilot/media/student_pilot%20_guidance.pdf

Yes, the reg could be clearer.
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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:29 pm

Yep, I've seen that. Since the endorsement refers to 61.325, I think you have to interpret it in that light. 325 only requires 3 full-stop landings at a towered airport with no mention of class. It also requires instruction in the rules for B, C, and D, not just one of them. So the reg isn't very clear.

I'm not an aviation lawyer, though. Googling didn't find me any official FAA interpretations. My guess is the vagueness will let 'em do whatever they like, and this won't be nailed down until some guy has a problem in a bravo and the FAA looks for every way possible to throw the book at him.

There was a forum discussion about this a while ago: http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2164
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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:35 pm

BTW, I think (dangerous, I know) that those endorsements are only recommendations for language, not regulatory.

The endorsement doesn't match the language of the reg (61.325) very well. I think if an instructor were to write "I certify that Joe Pilot is proficient in the following areas" and then copied down 61.325 a, b, and c verbatim his endorsement would be valid and more correct.

But you're a CFI and I ain't, so I value your opinion!
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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:51 pm

For comparison, what's the training req't for a private pilot to fly in B, C, and D?
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:59 pm

Half Fast wrote:For comparison, what's the training req't for a private pilot to fly in B, C, and D?


I think the training required by the Private Pilot ACS is all that's necessary.
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foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:06 pm

Sorry I have not chimed in I just got back on the ground, did an hour and a half with my CFI. Great weather, little bit of bumps, but nothing too bad. Managed to land without instructor assistance but I would not call it graceful. Anyway, our area in Central Louisiana has one sleepy class D airport and very few C's. I can't recall if Louis Armstrong is C or B but I think it's B. For flying around here I would not even need a D, but I'd like to be able to eventually land at AEX, the old Air Force Base runways dwarf the small strip I am learning on...
Ed

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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:52 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
I think the training required by the Private Pilot ACS is all that's necessary.



So the Sport req't for B, C, and D is more stringent than the Private? Curiouser and curiouser...
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:13 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Half Fast wrote:That's probably prudent, but I believe not absolutely necessary by the letter of the FAR. A student pilot would need separate sign-offs for each, but once you have your Sport certificate, if you get an endorsement for any one of the three you're endorsed for all three.


I don't think that's right.

My impression is that each would require ground and flight training specific to the airspace privileges sought.


We went through this a few years back. I have done a few of these endorsements. Use whatever airspace with an operating control tower that is close and convenient. It is one endorsement that covers all three airspaces.

Yes you have to have ground and flight training. No it does not have to be in any of the specific airspaces. Simulated training will work just fine, just like it does for private pilots. In fact, if you can find a control tower that is located in class E or G airspace you could legally do the endorsement without ever flying in class B, C, or D airspace. The intent of 61.325 is to bring the level of training of a sport pilot up to the same level as a private pilot for operations in those airspaces. To think that the required training for a sport pilot would be greater is just silly.

I think I remember some one saying something about an endorsement for controlled airspace. I often find pilots have a poor understanding of controlled airspace. Anything other than class G airspace is controlled airspace. An easy way to think about it is any airspace that requires a clearance for IFR flight is controlled airspace.

For a student pilot seeking sport pilot privileges 61.94 covers the endorsement that is required. It must be done at the specific airport and in the specific airspace for which the endorsement is made, and it is only good for 90 days.

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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:13 pm

Half Fast wrote:
So the Sport req't for B, C, and D is more stringent than the Private? Curiouser and curiouser...


No.

A Private Pilot applicant has to have received instruction and shown proficiency in all three types, so an additional endorsement would be redundant.

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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:19 pm

Eddie, I don't see where that requires the private pilot to receive distinct instruction and supervised landings at each of the three.
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