"Real World" Performance

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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foresterpoole
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"Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:25 pm

OK, so I'm still progressing well through my flight school/training and am getting pretty excited. I've been scouring trade-a-plane, barnstormers, and controller.com looking at used (or new) LSA's out there that would fit my "mission" goals. Those goals are pretty strait forward: fly for fun 75% of the time mainly weekends and vacations as available. The other 25% of the time take a few fun trips, week or more, cross country: like 800 miles x-country. My wife gets motion sick easily so she is out as a passenger, my son however, will soon be old enough to possibly fly with me (he's 3 now I'm looking at purchasing in 1-2 years) and seems very excited at the opportunity. This was one of the reasons I am going the LSA route and not a full PPL yet, my wife would never (Like BA Baracus A-team never) consider flying with me so only two seats are really needed. I've narrowed it down to a few candidates that seem to have good reviews online and on paper fit the bill, good economy, reasonable cruise speed, decent usable weight. Each one obviously has trade offs, speed vs weight vs cabin room, etc. as a background I'm 155 lbs and my son tips the scales at about 30 lbs, probably will be under 100 for the next few years, I believe in most cases this leaves plenty of weight for fuel and baggage in most of these if the weight and balance calculations are to be believed. I need some real world stats on these aircraft if I could from folks that have flown or own them, paper stats is one thing, actually flying them is another. Specifically average cruise speed under normal conditions, fuel burn per hour, actual empty weights, and comfort. All of these things I understand will vary by individual, weather conditions, etc. but a real world overview is my next step before I seriously start getting in them and demo'ing.

Arion Lightning
Czech Sport/Piper Sport Cruiser
Evektor Sportstar Max
Dova Skylark
Airplane Factory Sling 2
Technam Astore
Technam P2008

I'm leaning towards the low wings, but that P2008 is an awfully nice looking aircraft, I'm currently learning in a P92 Echo Super which is the only one around to train in, I've got a few hours in a C172 as well. Thanks for your input!
Ed

foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:07 pm

Hi I flygps, to address that concern my aircraft budget is North of your lower figure by 20% or so. I would also like to mention I'd consider new or used. Used, not abused is preferable of course to lower initial costs, insurance, etc. I've done the math and everything on paper adds up in the budget. I've used my friend who owned a Mooney as a financial guide in terms of maintenance and annuals, probably way overestimated since thats a complex aircraft but I'd rather stay on the high side. Owe and I noticed that you own a Skycatcher, how do you like it?
Ed

foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:32 pm

Owe definitely, new versions of those run in the 150's. I'm also looking a year or two out so I'm hoping models like the Astore will start to trickle down into the used market by then. At this point I guess I'm a tire kicker with a definitive financial plan for ownership with a reasonable set timeline. I'm just trying to get a sense of what more experienced pilots and owners think about their aircraft and ownership experiences.
Ed

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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:44 pm

You might also consider a partnership. Two or three people sharing a plane is a viable way to afford a newer or better equipped plane. Think of your budget, then think of what 2X your budget would get you with a partner.
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3Dreaming
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:39 pm

quote="eyeflygps"]
foresterpoole wrote:Hi I flygps, to address that concern my aircraft budget is North of your lower figure by 20% or so.

You cannot purchase a new LSA for your budget. You should plan on a used plane and $1,000 per month, more if you need a hanger.


Not that it is what he is looking for, but it does meet the budget. The Bushcat is down there too.

http://www.fly-buylsa.com/Savannah.html

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FastEddieB
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:55 am

1) Where are you located?

2) Though they may not fit your bill, Chesapeake Light Sport has 2 Sky Arrows for sale. My Sky Arrow experience after almost 10 years has been both positive and quite economical overall.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:18 am

Hi Eddie, I'm in Louisiana, so I'm guessing Chesapeake Light Sport is in Maryland? That might be a little too far. The partnership concept would be exactly what I would like to do, but I just can't find anyone in Central Louisiana willing to fork over 30-70g's on a 2 seat aircraft, most of my pilot friends already own or have a share in GA aircraft (and all are complex) so they are out. If you folks know of anyone in the area that might be interested have them send me a message, again I'm a year out, so what I'm looking for is real world experiences with the aircraft listed. Specifically red flag items: Are there issues getting parts, do they cruise at way below their advertised specs, are they significantly heavier than advertised, consumption of fuel way higher than advertised. Basically, strip off the marketing hype and give me a perspective from an owner/pilot.
Ed

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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:18 am

FastEddieB wrote:1) Where are you located?


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4594

3Dreaming
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:27 am

foresterpoole wrote:I'm leaning towards the low wings, but that P2008 is an awfully nice looking aircraft, I'm currently learning in a P92 Echo Super which is the only one around to train in, I've got a few hours in a C172 as well. Thanks for your input!


Based on 35 years and around 10,000 hours flight time the high wing verses low wing is primarily an ascetics decision. I own one of each and have quite a bit of time in both. I would suggest that you look at the mission first. Find one that meets the performance standards of your mission. Then determine if the airplane is a low or high wing. To limit your search to low wing only may eliminate the best airplane for your mission before you even make a choice.

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Half Fast
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby Half Fast » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:48 am

foresterpoole wrote: The partnership concept would be exactly what I would like to do, but I just can't find anyone in Central Louisiana willing to fork over 30-70g's on a 2 seat aircraft, ...


Talk with your CFI. If he's trained other sport pilots, he might be able to contact them to see if one of them would be interested in a partnership deal.

Another option would be to search out current LSA owners in the area, then contact them to see if anyone would be interested in taking on a partner.
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zaitcev
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby zaitcev » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:48 am

With just 80k upfront plus $1k montly budget and a requirement to travel with a kid for a week, I would definitely go Private and get a 172 or even a Cherokee. Even the best payload LSAs require too much discipline packing. Eddie's wife managed to fly with him in SkyArrow from Tennessee to Arizona and back. He later admitted taking everything out of an airplane down to pencils and napkins, and weighting headsets and sunglasses. Bet he had to off-load fuel too. Seriously, make it easy on yourself and get a real airplane first.

I'm in a similar situation, market-wise, and I'm looking at used CTs. However, with wife onboard it's strictly an overnight trip for up to 400 nm. We've done a shopping trip in a Remos once and ended discarding all the free bags in which the store put the goods.

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FastEddieB
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:22 am

zaitcev wrote:Eddie's wife managed to fly with him in SkyArrow from Tennessee to Arizona and back. He later admitted taking everything out of an airplane down to pencils and napkins, and weighting headsets and sunglasses. Bet he had to off-load fuel too. Seriously, make it easy on yourself and get a real airplane first.



For those interested:

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2759
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

foresterpoole
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby foresterpoole » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:04 pm

Wow that was quite the trip Eddie :shock: , call me impressed! What I'm envisioning is a bit less ambitious in terms of mountain flying, but those coastal winds I'm sure could be hell. Basically, from a planning standpoint it would go something like this traveling mostly along Victor Airways:

Pineville (2L0) to Monroe County (MVC) - I'm very familiar with both of these airports and I know I can walk to a gas station and hotel in Monroe (longest leg of 264 NM)
MVC to Thomasville Regional (TVI) via Weedon (EUF) - this leg is 220NM only because I'm avoiding all that military traffic near Pensacola NAS and Tallahassee.
Thomasville Regional (TVI) to Williston (X60) - 125NM
Williston (X60) to Valkaria (X59) - 229NM only because I would have to fly to gap between Orlando and Tampa Bravo Airspace/Mode C, then fly south around Restricted R2901 A&B

I figure 2-3 days there and 2-3 back, with my wife driving a chase car just in case, she won't fly but driving is her strong-suit!

My Brother and Sister-in-Law live less than 20 miles away from X59. Now having this is all well and good on paper, in reality most likely problematic. A PPL would pretty much cut a lot of detours out and allow me to fly direct to Melbourne, but where's the light sport fun in that (dripping with sarcasm)...
Ed

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FastEddieB
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:36 pm

foresterpoole wrote:I figure 2-3 days there and 2-3 back, with my wife driving a chase car just in case, she won't fly but driving is her strong-suit!

My Brother and Sister-in-Law live less than 20 miles away from X59. Now having this is all well and good on paper, in reality most likely problematic. A PPL would pretty much cut a lot of detours out and allow me to fly direct to Melbourne, but where's the light sport fun in that (dripping with sarcasm)...


On my recent S FL trip, Karen drove our Jeep down. She enjoys flying, but economically it made sense to not have to rent a car, plus to have more options if there were mechanical or weather delays (there weren't). We have friends in Malabar, and often use X59 as a stop enroute to S FL.

I don't quite get the part about the PPL cutting out detours. Though I'm a Commercial pilot and CFI, I'm operating sans medical so have all the Sport Pilot limitations. Can't recall any detours being necessitated by that fact. Or are you just referring to the ability to fly a longer-legged certified aircraft with more performance and range cutting out fuel stops?
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

3Dreaming
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Re: "Real World" Performance

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:56 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
foresterpoole wrote:I figure 2-3 days there and 2-3 back, with my wife driving a chase car just in case, she won't fly but driving is her strong-suit!

My Brother and Sister-in-Law live less than 20 miles away from X59. Now having this is all well and good on paper, in reality most likely problematic. A PPL would pretty much cut a lot of detours out and allow me to fly direct to Melbourne, but where's the light sport fun in that (dripping with sarcasm)...


On my recent S FL trip, Karen drove our Jeep down. She enjoys flying, but economically it made sense to not have to rent a car, plus to have more options if there were mechanical or weather delays (there weren't). We have friends in Malabar, and often use X59 as a stop enroute to S FL.

I don't quite get the part about the PPL cutting out detours. Though I'm a Commercial pilot and CFI, I'm operating sans medical so have all the Sport Pilot limitations. Can't recall any detours being necessitated by that fact. Or are you just referring to the ability to fly a longer-legged certified aircraft with more performance and range cutting out fuel stops?


The only difference is a sport pilot would need airspace endorsements while you would not. That being said the endorsements would be easy enough to get.


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