TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

Moderator: drseti

ccandrews
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:32 pm
Contact:

TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby ccandrews » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:17 pm

Hi everyone, i hope that there is room to continue the discussion on these two aircraft and i don't just get a bunch of eye-rolls. But i really need to tap into the collective wisdom of those that have gone before me.

I am about to semi-retire and i have a lot of years of past flying to catch up on. the mission is, like most, 90% solo but also probably at least 75% cross country -- as in to all points of the lower 48 hitting up every fly-in, fly-out, airshow, and pancake breakfasts i can until i have visited all old friends and worn myself out. I don't have a giant bladder but i do like to leave an hour in my tanks.

It all comes down to this: If the FAA would grant an exemption for a parachute and several extra gallons of fuel so that the P2008 could go up to the 1388 lbs that it is certified elsewhere, then the decision would be a no-brainer for the tecnam. But as is, the same configuration in a Sirius seems to have a payload advantage.

Even though LSA exemptions have started to squeak out of the FAA recently, it doesn't seem that tecnam and others are at the front of the line asking for an exemption for what are probably two of the easiest-to-argue safety enhancements readily available: a parachute and an extra hour of fuel. (Yes, it isn't going to stop fuel exhaustion accidents but putting a little fuel in a partitioned reservoir with a 'standby' valve worked well on my old motorcycle and puts you in the appropriate mindset when the engine sputters. i don't know why this isn't done anymore). Tecnam particularly would benefit from this since they are on the pudgy side.

Does anybody who is in the know think there is any chance of tecnam or others working through an exemption for a parachute? i know this topic comes up all the time, everyone yammers about it, and then it goes nowhere. but i also can't see that the manufacturers are knocking themselves out trying.

My target configuration for the Tecnam gives an empty weight of 895 lbs plus another 30 or 35 lbs if i get a parachute. leaving 390 for everything else. Fine for solo but pitiful otherwise. I live out west where the benefits of the rotax 914 turbo are obvious but parachute vs turbo is a tough decision. or parachute vs 6 gallons of fuel.

I was once riding in the car with a friend when she opened the sunroof on a beautiful day. She said 'boy, am i glad that i got this sunroof instead of those anti-lock brakes'. For the last 30 years this has made me chuckle as something a ditzy-youngster would say, but now I am seriously wondering if I will ever say 'boy, i wish i had gotten that parachute rather than this turbo'.

need input. any appreciated.

thanks

Craig

Cluemeister
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:20 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby Cluemeister » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:26 am

Welcome to the forum. I think the Tecnam is a fine aircraft.

I would only make one change to your weight evaluation. There is a max empty weight the aircraft is allowed to weigh to sell as a SLSA. A formula involving engine horsepower, 2 passengers, etc. I would ask Tecnam about the legal formula, but I'm relatively certain it is not 925 lbs.

Unfortunately, I do not see the LSA makers bonding together to petition the FAA to allow chutes for a weight exemption. Now if you're a company not yet building something super sexy (not a boring high wing) and have a great marketing department, then getting crazy high weight exemptions is not a problem. (stepping off soap box)

Previous debates about the P2008 are well documented here on this site. I would not expect a different conversation this time. :)

EDIT: Clarified my point about weight being max empty weight.

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby MackAttack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:26 am

*eye roll* ... wait, you didn't want that ... *laughing* and just kidding ...

Both are fine planes. The CT is a high wing with a chute also. There are a number of P2008 owners on this forum and others who both have (and do not have) chutes ... and like Cluemeister, I don't want to re-start the gross weight conversations!

I had the same reaction about the chute weight - personally, I think the FAA should exclude a ballistic recovery system from the gross weight calculation for an aircraft ... but that's just one man's opinion and certainly not the FAA's.

My personal opinion is that you should choose the best airplane for your mission. If you want a parachute, understand the tradeoffs in terms of useful load that will make for your choice and go from there. No aircraft is perfect, but each pilot weighs the pros and cons differently.

The best advice I can give you is to ACTUALLY FLY these aircraft you are considering. Numbers, reviews, statistics, articles, forum posts ... are only part of the equation.

Like you, I'm a "rusty pilot" returning to aviation and decided to go the LSA route. I recently went through this process (picking up a new Tecnam Astore next week) ... I agonized over gross weight, a few knots in speed, seat covering materials and paint jobs, parts availability, engine choices, blah blah blah...

Then I flew some planes. Lo and behold, I had definite preferences - they all fly differently. They all feel different. Fit and finish is different. Handling is different. You just have to fly them. Once you do, things will get MUCH clearer.

If you have flown them, just disregard the post. But I would not base a decision just based on the numbers ...

Cheers, welcome to the forum and good luck! You're in for a lot of fun!!!! Please post any questions on this board (or manufacturer-specific boards out there, of which there are a few). And remember, what you get back is worth exactly what you are paying for it!

Cheers!

ccandrews
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:32 pm
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby ccandrews » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:13 am

Cluemeister wrote: There is a max empty weight the aircraft is allowed to weigh to sell as a SLSA. A formula involving engine horsepower, 2 passengers, etc. I would ask Tecnam about the legal formula, but I'm relatively certain it is not 925 lbs.

EDIT: Clarified my point about weight being max empty weight.


Ah--i didn't realize that. The empty weight of the new currently listed 2016 p2008 is 895 lbs so the adding in of the 35 lbs for the parachute was entirely my math. It did not come from tecnam so i honestly don't know if a parachute even can be added to the p2008. Tecnam just said they don't usually take orders for the 914 turbo with a parachute and after i did the add'n and subtract'n i could see why.

thanks

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5215
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby drseti » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:03 am

I think the current ASTM rule is that empty weight, plus two 180 pound occupants, plus the weight of 2 hours fuel at cruise power, cannot exceed maximum gross weight. For a Rotax 912 engine, if we assume 5 GPH, that comes to 60 pounds of fuel, so minimum useful load must be 420 pounds, which would mean empty weight cannot exceed 900#. So, it sounds as though that 895# Tecnam is right at the LSA limit. (Of course, for single place aircraft, you would use the weight of just one 180 pound occupant, but the basic method is the same.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

ccandrews
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:32 pm
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby ccandrews » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:00 pm

MackAttack wrote:
The best advice I can give you is to ACTUALLY FLY these aircraft you are considering. Numbers, reviews, statistics, articles, forum posts ... are only part of the equation.

........

Then I flew some planes. Lo and behold, I had definite preferences - they all fly differently. They all feel different. Fit and finish is different. Handling is different. You just have to fly them. Once you do, things will get MUCH clearer.

....



Thanks. Indeed that is a critical step and hope to spend as much time as i can in both. I don't think tecnam did themselves any favors stopping the one-per-state demo-available program they had started; they need to get aircraft out there to be routinely seen, and close enough to most people. After all, nothing sells a plane better than getting the customer to fall in love so little things like empty weight and parachutes seem less important. there are a couple of demo-TL3000 reasonably close but apparently not a demo-P2008.

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby MackAttack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:29 pm

Where do you live? Maybe we can help you find a P2008 that's not too far ... but in fairness, I had to do my demo rides in Minnesota (where I was going anyway but not to the same city - Mankato), and Pennsylvania for the Bristell (I was headed to NY for business). I live in Houston.

Some of these companies will reimburse your travel if you sign a contract and put down a deposit after your ride ...

On the Sirius, I believe the dealer/importer is Sportair in Little Rock, AR. After checking the FAA registration database, there are 11 total Sirius TL-3000 aircraft registered in the US. Of those 8 have the 912ULS engine, 1 has the 912iS engine and 1 has the 914 engine. 1 registration does not specify the engine.

On the Tecnam side, there are over 30 P2008's registered in the database, several of which have the 914 engine. I think most manufacturers struggle with useful load when it comes to the 914 engine and a parachute; I encountered the same resistance from Tecnam on my 914 Astore plus a chute. I wound up buying a factory demonstrator that was fully-loaded with everything BUT the chute ... However, I do know they will deliver a P2008 with a 914 and a chute within the legal empty weight limit (that's an all-composite aircraft where there is a little flex in the weight based on total resin usage and similar items, whereas the Astore is all-metal).

Tecnam has a full factory facility in Florida supplying parts around the country and is the largest GA manufacturer outside the US, and the world's largest manufacturer (currently) of EASA CS-VLA and US LSA aircraft. They are still making parts for the first aircraft Partenavia (what they used to be called) built in 1948 ...

My point is that there are factors beyond the numbers - flying the aircraft (traveling to do that if necessary), the manufacturer and their history, the dealer and his/her history, your mission, the compromises the aircraft designers make and your assessment of how important they are, etc.

No one can make this decision for you - but all of us can share how we came to our own decision and if those thoughts help you, then great!

Cheers!

ccandrews
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:32 pm
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby ccandrews » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:20 pm

I live in the pacific northwest. there is a p2008 up the road and tecnam is seeing if it is going to be anywhere out and about where i can go see it. it didn't sound like it was available for demo flights.

If i decide to go with the tecnam over the sirius and push comes to shove, i may have to drop the idea of a chute.

After all, i will wish i had the payload every time i do a weight and balance. I can't imagine wishing that i had the parachute for more than a minute or two, three at the most. :lol:

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5215
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby drseti » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:30 pm

...and most likely, only once in the lifetime of the aircraft.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby MackAttack » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:37 pm

Keep us posted ... all of us on the forum are happy to help if we can!

User avatar
Half Fast
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 7:27 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby Half Fast » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:46 pm

ccandrews wrote: I can't imagine wishing that i had the parachute for more than a minute or two, three at the most. :lol:



Or, to state it differently, spending the rest of your life wishing you had it.... :)
1/2
----------------
I dream of a world where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

Cluemeister
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:20 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby Cluemeister » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:04 pm

Half Fast wrote:
ccandrews wrote: I can't imagine wishing that i had the parachute for more than a minute or two, three at the most. :lol:



Or, to state it differently, spending the rest of your life wishing you had it.... :)


When you say it like that, it sounds kind of important. :)

sunharvester
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby sunharvester » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:59 pm

ok
Last edited by sunharvester on Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ccandrews
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:32 pm
Contact:

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby ccandrews » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:52 pm

Thank you for the information. this is exactly the sort of straight talk that helps everyone looking at the LSA and certified market make better decisions. Does TL have a plan to get you out of this mess or are you giving up trying to go through them and just take care of things on your own? Is the parent company taking any responsibility? Do you think these are mostly issues that came during reassembly and final fit here in north america?

I really hope that TL steps up to the plate for you. please keep us informed when you get the chance.

---regards

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: TL3000 Sirius vs Tecnam P2008

Postby MackAttack » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:40 am

Interesting posts recently. I can say that many (maybe most) new aircraft have a few "squawks" in the first 100 hours or so; that's not uncommon. What really makes a difference is how the dealer and company treat the customer.

I had an exhaust pipe leak that was discovered during my 50-hour inspection (done at 70 hours, after delivery) of my Tecnam Astore. The lead was due to a bad weld in the actual pipe itself, which was covered by the Rotax warranty (not the Tecnam one). The hot gas stream damaged the hard oil return line (scorched it actually); that part was covered by Tecnam and they fedexed that part to my mechanic immediately, no issues. Still waiting for Rotax to get back to my on the warranty claim but I went ahead and got the part from Lockwood Aviation (manages the Rotax stuff) and with Tecnam's great help in Sebring, got that fedexed out as well.

I have had several questions about various systems and issues and the Tecnam folks in the US (both the dealers and their US operation in Sebring, FL) have been responsive by phone and email; and by responsive, I mean same or next day. You really can't put a price on any of that.

I have heard that the US dealer for Sirius, Sportair, is pretty reputable. They also sell the Zlin aircraft. So you might get better service from them, I don't know. But it does help that Tecnam stocks in their Sebring facility spares of EVERY PART on the aircraft they sell in the US, so those parts get shipped pretty damn quick.

Best of luck on your aircraft decision!

Cheers


Return to “Light Sport Aircraft”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests