New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2134
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby FastEddieB » Mon May 16, 2016 8:24 am

I have several thoughts on this topic, which I'll probably spread over at least a couple posts.

I think it's a "false choice" when asking, "Is it safer to operate an LSA over 1,320 lbs or to carry insufficient fuel"? If that's a real consideration, let me suggest that one picked the wrong plane for the mission, or optioned it poorly.

When spec'ing a new plane, one should pause and consider the effect on EW of each option. Does one really need that autopilot? Two or three glass panels? The 912is? The optional interior? And so on.

That said, the EW given for the P2008 is on the high side, but not prohibitive. My Sky Arrow worked out to 861 when new. It's just a tad lighter now with the lighter lithium iron battery, but still tips the scales at abut 856 lbs empty.

I just know I have to plan my missions accordingly. Some old timers here know Karen and I had to slightly reduce fuel load to stay under gross for our Page adventure. Still had plenty for 2-hour legs, which is about what we tend to enjoy before needing to stretch/go potty.

Here's the "cheat sheet" I use when planning no-baggage local flights:

Image

There are a whole slew of reasons NOT to commit to flying over legal limits, but I'll save those for another post.
Last edited by FastEddieB on Mon May 16, 2016 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby MackAttack » Mon May 16, 2016 8:37 am

Thanks FastEddieB - great real-world post about the limits. I'm fortunate that my mission is mostly a solo mission, so that gives me the flexibility to get a heavier LSA if I so choose.

Just a quick PS to the collective about my "the airplane can handle it" comment - it was not about breaking the rules, but advocating CHANGING THEM because I think it would improve safety to exclude from (or add to) the MTOW for certain safety items like chutes, etc. Knowing what weights these other countries have certificated these aircraft to is an important element in that assessment.

I agree with the recent posters in the thread that the main problem is that many owner-pilots aren't really honest with themselves about their mission profiles, so get their LSAs loaded up with all the goodies and options and then find out "oops, I can't take my wife/buddy/our clubs and full fuel." I found Tecnam to be very up front with me about the impact the empty weights of their aircraft would have on my mission and the options they would (or would not) recommend combining for that purpose.

Let's face it, we'd all like more useful load - I think that's true of almost every GA owner-pilot! Most 4-place aircraft (even that Mooney that the P2008 guy bought) are really 3-place aircraft with full fuel. Or perhaps just 2-place with baggage. What sets LSA apart is the MTOW is set by rule, not by certification.

And we should be happy about that generally speaking because that simplicity is what allowed the creativity and innovation in LSA in the first place!!! But it also means that the FAA, in my humble opinion, should be similarly open to tweaking those rules when there is a safety benefit in doing so ... I thought about filing a formal petition with them to do just that but it is really a major pain in the butt so decided against it.

And that's my Monday am two cents ...

Cheers!

Nomore767
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 16, 2016 8:51 am

Cluemeister wrote:Respectfully, is that any different than the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink my medical expired" hinting at an attitude of disregard for both safety and regulations?


At the last Sebring Light Sport Expo I did a demo in one of the heavier LSAs. I'll refrain from naming the manufacturer however when I talked to the demo pilot about the specs and the higher empty weight he actually said something like 'this baby is certified in Europe to a much higher weight . You should see the stuff we piled in the back to come to the show!". And he actually did the 'wink, nudge' thing!

I held a !st Class Medical for years, allowed it to expire and fly as a sport pilot using my DL. What's your point?

Remember, albeit not in the same category as an FAA Medical, a state's driver's license 'medical' still has to be maintained and it's provisions adhered to. For instance you must wear corrective lenses if required on your DL. If you're disqualified for DUI for example, you lose your sport flying privileges too.

I believe Paul espouses a zero tolerance for disregarding the rules and should be commended. Aviation is based on rigid sets of rules and limitations, many of which are self-regulated, up to a point. Bending them or exceeding the limits does all of a us a disservice, in my opinion.

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2134
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby FastEddieB » Mon May 16, 2016 9:14 am

Part 2:

Let's say a pilot decides that, for him, 50 lbs over gross isn't so bad - I mean its not like the wings are going to fall off or anything.

But that pilot needs to ask himself...

1) What will the takeoff distance be 50 lbs over? How about rate of climb?

2) What does the W&B envelope do above 1,320 lbs? Can he just project the published envelope upwards assuming the shape stays roughly the same?

3) What will the stall speed be in various configurations, and how much margin is appropriate over that speed on approach?

4) Given 3 above, how much runway will be needed at the new, faster approach and landing speeds?

5) Depending on where the excess load is carried, how much margin is provided in the aircraft structure to support it? At what g loading will it deform or fail?

6) How would one need to massage the cruise performance charts to know the range or endurance at the new, heavier weight?

7) How much margin will be lost in a hard landing, and at what point will the gear to deform or fail?

8) What would be the new service ceiling?

Each and every answer above can be answered - all it would take is a test pilot and a structural engineer to run the numbers and test the performance.

I'll stipulate that ferry pilots can and do get exemptions to gross weight limits. But they are (hopefully) well paid and understand the risks. I'm not sure that Joe Blow pilot always does.
Last edited by FastEddieB on Mon May 16, 2016 10:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

3Dreaming
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon May 16, 2016 9:30 am

jake wrote: If we were to ask Tecnam they would say its basically impossible to design a reasonably durable and safe two seat aircraft with a 550 lb useful load and remain under 1320lbs.

Mark Gregor


I hope you are not insinuating that some of the older Tecnams are unsafe. Looking online there are several of the older models that had useful loads over 550 pounds.

The problem is the same for all of the manufactures who have been building LSA since the beginning of the new rule. They started out with a nice flying light weight airplane that had a good useful load. Because of the demands of the buying customer they have made design changes, and added creature comforts at the expense of weight.

Nomore767
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 16, 2016 10:08 am

When I flew night freight for a 'living' there was a non-pilot guy who ran the loads/weight and balance section known as "Magic Mike'.

One night as we lifted off Captain cursed as he felt the airplane was heavy and out of trim. Capt did an audit at next station and turns out we were over gross and at the rearmost limit.

During his 're-education' Magic Mike explained he'd been told that the Convair 580s we flew were well built and capable of carrying 15% more than the max gross and so that's what he'd been doing!

Later in the month on a hot August night , same crew, we had an inspection panel flip up and go through the engine leaving bits all down the runway. The good old Allision kept going after a metal panel went through the reduction gear. We both thought about how different it might have been earlier in the month.

Okay bigger plane...but the principle's the same. It's a limit.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 16, 2016 11:35 am

FastEddieB wrote:Part 2:

Let's say a pilot decides that, for him, 50 lbs over gross isn't so bad - I mean its not like the wings are going to fall off or anything.

But that pilot needs to ask himself...

1) What will the takeoff distance be 50 lbs over? How about rate of climb?

2) What does the W&B envelope do above 1,320 lbs? Can he just project the published envelope upwards assuming the shape stays roughly the same?

3) What will the stall speed be in various configurations, and how much margin is appropriate over that speed on approach?

4) Given 3 above, how much runway will be needed at the new, faster approach and landing speeds?

5) Depending on where the excess load is carried, how much margin is provided in the aircraft structure to support it? At what g loading will it deform or fail?

6) How would one need to massage the cruise performance charts to know the range or endurance at the new, heavier weight?

7) How much margin will be lost in a hard landing, and at what point will the gear to deform or fail?

8) What would be the new service ceiling?

Each and every answer above can be answered - all it would take is a test pilot and a structural engineer to run the numbers and test the performance.

I'll stipulate that ferry pilots can and do get exemptions to gross weight limits. But they are (hopefully) well paid and understand the risks. I'm not sure that Joe Blow pilot always does.


9) How will I explain flying overweight to the FAA in the event of an accident.

10) If there's no problem flying overweight, even slightly overweight,because the plane can handle it, would I do this on a check ride and would the Examiner still give me a pass? If not, why not?

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5224
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby drseti » Mon May 16, 2016 11:55 am

11) In the unlikely event of a mishap, if the plane was found to be over gross (even if not a contributing factor), you can be sure the insurance policy will be void.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Nomore767
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 16, 2016 12:05 pm

' If we were to ask Tecnam they would say its basically impossible to design a reasonably durable and safe two seat aircraft with a 550 lb useful load and remain under 1320lbs.

Mark Gregor[/quote]

Isn't it true to say that Tecnam have built their LSAs for the European market, and European weight regulations?

When importing them to the USA they're handicapped trying to meet the lower USA maximum weight for LSA that meets both the European and USA markets. Thus, it might be impossible for Tecnam 'to design a reasonably durable and safe two seat aircraft with a 550 lb useful load and remain under 1320lbs.'

However, it can be done, I know because I bought an SLSA from Vans with an empty weight of 765lbs and a useful load of 555lbs and it was designed specifically to meet the USA LSA rules and max weight. Unless you believe it's not a reasonably durable and safe aircraft?
I'm sure there are others that were similarly designed to meet the USA LSA weight limits.

There is also maximum empty weight for SLSAs which I believe is 890lbs (1000lbs for float planes).
Last edited by Nomore767 on Mon May 16, 2016 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2134
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby FastEddieB » Mon May 16, 2016 12:06 pm

Nomore767 wrote:
9) How will I explain flying overweight to the FAA in the event of an accident.



That was possibly the topic of Part 3.

Any accident or incident, even totally unrelated to the overweight condition, could easily result in a suspended or even revoked certificate.

If that's at all important to you, probably best not to fly over gross.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

Nomore767
Posts: 853
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 16, 2016 12:10 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:
9) How will I explain flying overweight to the FAA in the event of an accident.



That was possibly the topic of Part 3.

Any accident or incident, even totally unrelated to the overweight condition, could easily result in a suspended or even revoked certificate.

If that's at all important to you, probably best not to fly over gross.


Thanks for posting your very good points and thoughts for our ...(ahem) "Eddie-fication". :)

I saw this on another forum from Cub Crafter's (written 2007) and thought it might also be of interest on this thread:-:-

"In short, the Maximum Empty Weight of a 2-place, 100hp, S-LSA on wheels cannot exceed 890 Lbs in any configuration, including the weight of all optional equipment. The Maximum Gross Weight for that airplane is 1,320 Lbs. If that same airplane is equipped for float operations (i.e. floats are installed), the Maximum Empty Weight is 1,000 Lbs and the Maximum Gross Weight is 1,430 Lbs for that float-equipped airplane. All of this information, including the correct formulas and calculations, can be found in much greater detail in ASTM 2245: Standard Specification for the Design and Performance of a Light Sport Airplane. ASTM 2245 is one of several of the “consensus standards” that a manufacturer must comply with to legally certify S-LSA aircraft.

Interestingly, there is more urgent information on the subject that you may not be aware of coming from the FAA, EAA, and the LSA industry trade group LAMA (the Light Aircraft Manufacturer’s Association). Each seems very concerned about compliance with this particular Maximum Empty Weight limitation for S-LSA. LAMA sent this “Industry Alert” out below - only the second one it has ever issued - to all LSA manufacturers just a few weeks ago on 7.25.07. The “Alert” not only clarifies the certification requirements around weight, but it raises the issue of “non-compliance status and FAA action for both new and existing S-LSA aircraft” if those aircraft ARE NOT in compliance with the Maximum Empty Weight specification or any other certification requirement. Questions are already being raised about how an S-LSA airplane (100hp, 2-place) that weighs more than 890 Lbs empty is “legal” or is going to pass its annual condition inspection, but in our case, every CubCrafters S-LSA produced has come under the Maximum Empty Weight certification limit."

MackAttack
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby MackAttack » Mon May 16, 2016 12:26 pm

Very interesting ... thanks for posting that! I think that limit is now just a bit higher ... but its true that CubCrafters will not sell you a SLSA over 905 or thereabouts, I believe (it's on their order form) for a 2-place SLSA, period. They will go up to 1090-something for a single-place LSA. I think ASTM developed a formula that they all follow now ... and it's just over 900 lbs. Oddly enough, CubCrafters has a long list of options okayed for an E-LSA, not sure what that means... Otherwise, it has to be an E-AB. And then you can go all the way to 1800 lbs ... but it's clear they are focused on the limit.

Cheers!

And PS - I agree with the above that if your post-incident/accident answer to the FAA is "But Qatar certified this aircraft to 1500 pounds" is probably not going to help you much!! I haven't, however, seen what the sport pilot or PPL certificate enforcement history has been or the extent to which pilots have been disciplined for being over gross weight ... and insurers can almost always be counted on to say "no" if they can find a way to do so ... all very valid points!

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5224
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby drseti » Mon May 16, 2016 12:41 pm

MackAttack wrote: I think ASTM developed a formula that they all follow now


Correct. I believe the formula is now based upon two occupants at a particular assumed weight (I think it's 180 pounds, not the old FAA standard of 170), plus two hours of fuel at cruise power (for a Rotax 912 ULS, that's 10 gallons, or 60 pounds). That makes the limit 900 pounds for a 1320 pound max gross airplane powered by a 912 ULS, and slightly more for a 912iS (due to its lower fuel consumption).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

User avatar
designrs
Posts: 1485
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:57 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby designrs » Mon May 16, 2016 12:49 pm

I believe the empty weight issues come into play with CubCrafters when selecting the larger tundra tires. I THINK it might have to go E-LSA in some cases.
- Richard

SportPilot
Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:39 pm

Re: New P2008 Owner and short flight review!

Postby SportPilot » Mon May 16, 2016 12:57 pm

.......
Last edited by SportPilot on Thu May 19, 2016 1:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.


Return to “Light Sport Aircraft”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest