Tecnam P2008 turbo

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Cluemeister
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby Cluemeister » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:02 pm

Nomore767 wrote: The point I was making is that frustration can lead to fudging the weight and adding this and that until you end up over weight and illegal. Are you intending to be unsafe and reckless? Only you can answer, but I would suggest taking a moment and think about sitting in the FSDO explaining it all to the FAA. I'm pretty sure 'its safe to fly at its higher certified weight in Europe' won't sit well with them.


I agree regarding the illegal part. If you fly over the US legal limit, and the FAA finds out, you are going to have to explain yourself. When you invoke the "safe in Europe" defense, that will be a bad thing.

But there are many on here that explain that it's not safe to fly a plane over 1320, even if it is certified to a higher weight elsewhere. I have read the Professors' weight limits and their affect on the human body absorbing impact at crash. I understand that.

However, after reviewing the 10 year FAA accident and fatality report for SLSA, I do not see a correlation between heavier planes with low useful loads, and higher fatality rates. I also do not see the phrase "overweight" or "over max gross" anywhere in the report. But I also understand excess weight can manifest itself in different ways, i.e. LOC or takeoff or landing issues.

What you do see in that report are a few manufacturers of specific planes with abnormally high fatality rates. That would indicate there is something about the handling aspect of that aircraft that makes it less safe to fly.

So am I safer in a plane with high historic fatality rates but is under gross weight?

I would say that just because the FAA has set a weight limit, that doesn't make an LSA safe that operates under that limit.

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:36 pm

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Nomore767
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby Nomore767 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:45 pm

Cluemeister wrote:
Nomore767 wrote: The point I was making is that frustration can lead to fudging the weight and adding this and that until you end up over weight and illegal. Are you intending to be unsafe and reckless? Only you can answer, but I would suggest taking a moment and think about sitting in the FSDO explaining it all to the FAA. I'm pretty sure 'its safe to fly at its higher certified weight in Europe' won't sit well with them.


I agree regarding the illegal part. If you fly over the US legal limit, and the FAA finds out, you are going to have to explain yourself. When you invoke the "safe in Europe" defense, that will be a bad thing.

But there are many on here that explain that it's not safe to fly a plane over 1320, even if it is certified to a higher weight elsewhere. I have read the Professors' weight limits and their affect on the human body absorbing impact at crash. I understand that.

However, after reviewing the 10 year FAA accident and fatality report for SLSA, I do not see a correlation between heavier planes with low useful loads, and higher fatality rates. I also do not see the phrase "overweight" or "over max gross" anywhere in the report. But I also understand excess weight can manifest itself in different ways, i.e. LOC or takeoff or landing issues.

What you do see in that report are a few manufacturers of specific planes with abnormally high fatality rates. That would indicate there is something about the handling aspect of that aircraft that makes it less safe to fly.

So am I safer in a plane with high historic fatality rates but is under gross weight?

I would say that just because the FAA has set a weight limit, that doesn't make an LSA safe that operates under that limit.


Is an airplane operated over gross weight inherently unsafe, probably not. Is a pilot who knowingly operates an airplane over max gross weight flying recklessly and in an unsafe manner, as well as illegal? Yes.
If there is an accident/incident and the report finds that the pilot knowingly operated the airplane overweight is that pilot subject to license suspension/revocation? Yes.

I would say that a pilot who is cavalier about weight and balance is likely to also be the same way with regards aircraft performance. A previous poster mentioned high density altitude, high temperatures etc. There is also the manner in which the weight is distributed.

Thing is, we're all stuck with the rule the way it is. However, there are some manufacturers who have worked diligently to produce a well performing airplane with a LOWER empty weight than some others. At lower cost too.
For example my RV-12 has a standard 750lb empty weight. I purchased it as an SLSA and it was delivered with a 765lb empty weight after adding options. This allows ME to pretty much do all the things I sought in my own sport flying 'mission' and at a price of about $90k than the airplane models I had been looking at. Another customer may view this differently and choose another model.

I think you're tilting at windmills here. Ask any LSA owner/pilot if they'd like an increase in LSA weight limit and they'd probably all yell YES in unison. Ask any LSA manufacturer who's trying to compete in the LSA sector if an increase in the LSA weight limit would be a welcome move, and they'd all say YES too. Ask any of the LSA manufactures if they'd like the same weight exemption that ICON got.
Ask us all if a weight limit change is likely soon, the answer I'm sure will be a resounding NO!

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:52 pm

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Cluemeister
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby Cluemeister » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:00 pm

SportPilot wrote:Why are you making a case that it is safe to fly over the legal weight limit? It is a moot point


I thought endlessly debating subjects with no definitive resolution was the point of this forum?

:)

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:18 pm

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Flocker
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby Flocker » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:58 pm

Nomore767 wrote:you really have to weigh up your personal 'mission' and decide which options make the most/least sense.


Best piece of advice in this thread. There are literally an infinite number of missions out there, some of which, the P2008 will accomplish. One of the 162s I currently fly weighs in at 864 lbs and it has suited my mission well for nearly 4 years.
Last edited by Flocker on Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:09 pm

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jake
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby jake » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:06 pm

This has gotten interesting! See what happens when you don't read for a few days!

People pretty much will always tell you why their choice is the correct one. Its human nature. I know Howard flies an RV-12. His every argument supports that decision. Its a great airplane and surely the right choice for him. That does not make it the right choice for everyone. There are tradeoffs to every decision. It is not an easy cut and dried decision as some may have implied.

Obviously almost all the LSAs have gained weight. Tecnam is not the only one. Americans enjoy luxuries like fully padded seats and upholstered interiors. We want all the avionics even though it may not really be necessary but we still like to have them. The same thing is happening in part 23 certified aircraft.


LSAs as a whole have not been very durable. They have had a lot more damage from landing incidents and accidents than heavier part 23 aircraft. It is difficult to make a good handling 1320lb aircraft with the amenities the market wants along with a strong airframe capable of taking a few bad landings.

Tecnam has been in business a long time. They know all pilots eventually have a bad landing. For example look at the nose wheel strut on the P2008. It is huge compared to other LSAs. If you look under the cowl you will also see the hydraulic strut front suspension much like a fully certified plane. No rubber or plastic bumpers on the Tecnam. I could not find it now but Tecnam used to have a video on the website where the 2008 lands driving the nose wheel into the runway and bounces the plane off the runway. No damage. This is just one example.

I have flown almost all the LSAs and Tecnams are in a different league. It may or may not be what you want but there is no denying it is more refined and engineered to a higher standard. There are lighter options but what is safer? Personally, I know for myself and others that the strength, safety and features of the Tecnam out weight the possible or potential disadvantages of the additional weight. Have you heard in aviation that "what is safe is not always legal and what legal is not always safe!"

I am not suggesting anyone fly overweight and I agree illegal is illegal but this seems a bit overblown. What are we talking here? 50 lbs at the very most? Think to yourself, how many thousands of Cessna 150 and 152 are out there flying? Have you ever seen two normal sized adults in one? If so there is a near 100% chance it was overweight and that plane is not even certified for the higher weight anywhere else. Has the FAA been ramp checking them? Not that I know of. They have had 40 years to do it. Obviously they know about it. At some point we need to just need to use common sense. No individual situation is alike.

Below is a list of mostly exclusive Tecnam features that contribute to safety.

1. Easy open engine cowls that encourage proper inspection.
2. Stronger nose and main landing gear. Compare to other aircraft.
3. Toe Brakes. Has anyone ever used differential braking to help in a cross wind landing?
4. Stainless steel braided brake lines compared to plastic. Plastic brake lines can be fragile.
5. larger oil and coolant radiators do not overhead during climb out. Compare
6. Larger Physical size of aircraft and rear stabilizer increases stability. 17 knot crosswind comp. Compare
7. Remote battery access in rear of aircraft away from the propeller.
8. Comfortable seats that slide fore and aft and recline like an automobile allow comfortable flying position
9. Substantial tail ground clearance makes tail strikes very unlikely
10. Andair fuel selector prevents out of balance fuel tanks
11. Advanced engineered wing design is extremely easy to land and substantially reduces runway float.

Every buyer can weigh the options and decide the best fit for them. Although I do represent Tecnam I know that one single aircraft will not meet everyone's needs.

Lets all go flying!!

Mark

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:25 pm

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FastEddieB
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Overblown?

I've mentioned it before, but someone flew my rental Citabria over gross once.

He died. So did a teenage passenger. N7596F if you care to Google it.

I don't care how many people fly over gross and don't crash, C150 or otherwise.

Most Conservative Action? Adhere to an aircraft's limitations. If you can't, you need a different plane.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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Cluemeister
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby Cluemeister » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:20 pm

FastEddieB wrote:Overblown?

I've mentioned it before, but someone flew my rental Citabria over gross once.

He died. So did a teenage passenger. N7596F if you care to Google it.

I don't care how many people fly over gross and don't crash, C150 or otherwise.

Most Conservative Action? Adhere to an aircraft's limitations. If you can't, you need a different plane.


As you stated, that plane was flying above certified weight. Would you fly the P2008 at 1380 lbs loaded if you were in Italy, where the plane is certified above that weight? Would you consider that safe or unsafe?

Same plane in the US. I would agree the plane is DEFINITELY illegal. And is a clear FAR violation. But overweight and jeopardizing the safety of its passengers? I can't see how you could make that argument if you answered that you would be safe flying this plane in Italy.

I understand it is a hypothetical argument as the plane is clearly ILLEGAL in the US at that weight. But I keep hearing it's unsafe at that weight, but somehow it's safe if you fly it an a different continent.

SportPilot
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby SportPilot » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:56 pm

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jetcat3
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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby jetcat3 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:03 pm

SportPilot wrote:This forum is called "Sport Pilot Talk." We're not in Italy. We're in the USA talking about flying LSA with Sport Pilot privileges and limitations.


Exactly. Flying a P2008 over 1320 pounds isn't unsafe for the airframe. It's unsafe because it's illegal under the light sport limitations set here in the US. Completely different than flying a Citabria or any other aircraft over the airframe's maximum certified and tested weight. Two completely different stories in these two examples. Please acknowledge this!

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Re: Tecnam P2008 turbo

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:06 pm

SportPilot wrote:This forum is called "Sport Pilot Talk." We're not in Italy. We're in the USA talking about flying LSA with Sport Pilot privileges and limitations.


What he said.

Some are playing a semantics game that others have, in the past, used to justify flying over legal gross weight.

My suggestion is to just stop when you realize a loading is illegal, because it's illegal.

Whether it's legal or safe in Italy or on Mars might be interesting, but is not productive.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com


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