Sport Pilot Talk

Hey y'all,

I'm new to the forum but I just wanted to say hi and give a brief flying report on the P2008 turbo I was able to fly over the weekend with Mark Gregor. I'll start with, "Wow!" UNBELIAVABLE performance from the 914 turbo engine. Starts and stops were a breeze and the throttle response was amazingly quick! It really did feel like much more than 15 extra horsepower. It felt like 135 horsepower up front! At gross weight we were seeing 1500+ fpm climbs! Wicked cool.

The airframe is pretty amazing. It feels so solid and sturdy in the air and can really absorb lots of turbulence out there. The laminar flow wing allows it to reach all of the speed allowed in the light sport category and the airplane makes it look so easy doing so.

Stalls and slow flight were very nice as well. We were flying with a 14-18 KNOT crosswind and it handled it all beautifully. Overall, I'm extremely impressed with how how nice this bird flies and looks. Sweet airplane Tecnam!

Sounds like a beauty! Do you know if there is a Tecnam specific owners forum out there? I haven't been able to find one, and would love to do more research on the P2008.

Sounds great, but doesn't that extra ooomph cut into the useful load?

Hey Tim,

That's the trouble with the P2008. I think they are coming in around 860 fully loaded.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... 04p_tecnam

This is a fairly recent review of the Rotax 914 powered Tecnam P2008. If you look at the empty weight as tested it allows for only 272lbs useful, with full fuel. For a solo flight for me, pretty good, but add a passenger and bags and the fuel load has to be reduced significantly.

I flew this particular demo model in the article at the Sebring Expo and the engine ran very smoothly and it was indeed a really nice top of the line LSA. Its also one of the heaviest, not the fastest (although it says it is), and is $219k.
As I recall it didn't have a BRS chute installed although its an available option but then consider the extra cost as well as adding about 30lbs (?) to the empty weight as published in the above article, which would push it over 910lbs empty and add several thousand more $$.

Really very nice airplane if you can live with the cons…high price and high weight.

Cluemeister wrote:Hey Tim,

That's the trouble with the P2008. I think they are coming in around 860 fully loaded.

My Sky Arrow came in at around that EW as delivered.

While lighter is better, even at those EW's the plane can still fulfill a lot of missions.

FastEddieB wrote:

Cluemeister wrote:Hey Tim,

That's the trouble with the P2008. I think they are coming in around 860 fully loaded.

While lighter is better, even at those EW's the plane can still fulfill a lot of missions.

True but caveat emptor.

I would advise any potential LSA customer to do a detailed and careful series of weight and balance calculations for their various mission profiles before putting money down.

Don't go by the brochure alone. Solo, a pilot can usually fly full fuel and maybe some bags but as soon as you add a passenger it often means reducing fuel load to stay legal. With todays (ahem) more portly pilots its not unusual to have a couple with one at 210lbs and the other at 180lbs. Those two folks (in the airplane in the AOPA article I posted above) already put the airplane over max weight , with full fuel. The demo plane in the article allowed only 292lbs so in that plane you would have to reduce fuel by 108lbs or 18 gallons. Considering this plane has a max full load of 24 gallons you basically have reserve plus a half hour cruise. Not much use.
And this is WITHOUT a BRS!

I have spoken to a couple of owners who love the P2008 but decided to sell because of the weight. One guy flew into my home field and we got talking. He had added the BRS to placate his wife and the weight increase was so heavy, quite frankly he admitted to flying it overweight. Sure the same airframe and engine in Europe is certified to a higher max weight and the 'airplane can take it' but its not legal. Or safe.

I think you can buy and carefully configure a P2008 at a reduced weight and I have to say I do really like this airplane, but you really have to weigh up your personal 'mission' and decide which options make the most/least sense. To be fair this is true of just about any new LSA. The guy I spoke to was going to back to a Mooney and was hoping the PBOR2 was coming soon. I've heard this before, and there are a few airplanes for sale because of this.

FastEddieB wrote:

Cluemeister wrote:Hey Tim,

That's the trouble with the P2008. I think they are coming in around 860 fully loaded.

My Sky Arrow came in at around that EW as delivered.

While lighter is better, even at those EW's the plane can still fulfill a lot of missions.

Without getting too personal about weight and you and the missus, how much fuel do you typically put in your plane when you x country?

Nomore767 wrote:

FastEddieB wrote:

Cluemeister wrote:Hey Tim,

That's the trouble with the P2008. I think they are coming in around 860 fully loaded.

While lighter is better, even at those EW's the plane can still fulfill a lot of missions.

True but caveat emptor.

I would advise any potential LSA customer to do a detailed and careful series of weight and balance calculations for their various mission profiles before putting money down.

Don't go by the brochure alone. Solo, a pilot can usually fly full fuel and maybe some bags but as soon as you add a passenger it means reducing fuel load to stay legal. With todays (ahem) more portly pilots its not unusual to have a couple with one at 210lbs and the other at 180lbs. Those two folks (in the airplane in the AOPA article I posted above) already put the airplane over max weight , with full fuel. The demo plane in the article allowed only 292lbs so in that plane you would have to reduce fuel by 108lbs or 18 gallons. Considering this plane has a max full load of 24 gallons you basically have reserve plus a half hour cruise. Not much use.
And this is WITHOUT a BRS!

I have spoken to a couple of owners who love the P2008 but decided to sell because of the weight. One guy flew into my home field and we got talking. He had added the BRS to placate his wife and the weight increase was so heavy, quite frankly he admitted to flying it overweight. Sure the same airframe and engine in Europe is certified to a higher max weight and the 'airplane can take it' but its not legal. Or safe.

I think you can buy and carefully configure a P2008 at a reduced weight and I have to say I do really like this airplane, but you really have to weigh up your personal 'mission' and decide which options make the most/least sense. To be fair this is true of just about any new LSA. The guy I spoke to was going to back to a Mooney and was hoping the PBOR2 was coming soon. I've heard this before, and there are a few airplanes for sale because of this.

Your points are well taken, but I feel you may have some sort of animosity towards the airplane? As far as empty weight goes, what is your feeling towards every Carbon Cub's empty weight that CubCrafters puts out of their factory? As far as speed goes, I've never seen a Light Sport aircraft hit 130 KNOTS true airspeed so easily or climb at 1600 feet per minute sustained. Those two performance measures were very apparent to me. It's definitely one of the fastest LSA's out there for sure. There are compromises with every LSA aircraft out there, but I just wanted to commend Tecnam on the job they did with the flight characteristics and performance.

Cluemeister wrote: Without getting too personal about weight and you and the missus, how much fuel do you typically put in your plane when you x country?

With no baggage, full fuel is easy, but that's only 18 gals.

On our trip to AZ, we had to leave about 2 gals out to stay under 1,320 lbs with the baggage we needed. Planned about 2 hour legs.

Installing a lithium iron battery saved me about 12 lbs, so now we could probably squeeze in that extra 2 gals for next time.

Here's my current W&B worksheet with "cheat sheet".

Cluemeister wrote:Do you know if there is a Tecnam specific owners forum out there?

I asked the same question in Sebring. They don't have one at the moment, but they are looking to start one.

jetcat3 wrote:I'm new to the forum but I just wanted to say hi and give a brief flying report on the P2008 turbo I was able to fly over the weekend with Mark Gregor.

Welcome to SPT!

"Your points are well taken, but I feel you may have some sort of animosity towards the airplane? As far as empty weight goes, what is your feeling towards every Carbon Cub's empty weight that CubCrafters puts out of their factory? As far as speed goes, I've never seen a Light Sport aircraft hit 130 KNOTS true airspeed so easily or climb at 1600 feet per minute sustained. Those two performance measures were very apparent to me. It's definitely one of the fastest LSA's out there for sure. There are compromises with every LSA aircraft out there, but I just wanted to commend Tecnam on the job they did with the flight characteristics and performance."

Jetcat3,

No animosity toward the airplane. Indeed I think I wrote several times that its a really nice airplane! I have flown a couple of different demo models. I admit to some concern with my experience with the north American dealership that previously sold the airplanes in the USA, but the new company Tecnam USA seems much better. That said, and talking of empty weight, I felt the demo pilot was cavalier about weight and shrugged it off with 'you should see how much stuff we packed into this plane on the way down. You know the plane is certified to a higher weight in Europe right? We just loaded it up and it did fine" Enough said. You asked so I'm saying.

I will say that I was close to buying a P2008 I liked it that much. There's no animosity intended regarding empty weight and I'm not trying to burst your bubble. I'm curious as to why you think I have animosity?
Fact is the P2008 is one of the heavier LSAs, and the Rotax 914 powered model is the heavier of the P2008s. Tecnam seem to prefer the 914 in their newer planes over the 912is/Sport powered airplanes. The early planes had the Rotax 912 ULS engines which are lighter and less expensive. The point I was making is that higher empty weight can be an LSA issue
.
The other side of the coin is a reality check when owners try to fly their 'mission' and realise they can't take a passenger, bags and full fuel, which is why I mentioned doing some weight and balance scenarios before buying. The guy I spoke to about his P2008 was all about the weight and how he needed an airplane that could meet his needs. He said he didn't pay much attention to it when he first bought it. Afterwards he couldn't do what he wanted without going overweight, hence the sale.

As for the Carbon Cub, I'm not familiar with their factory empty-weights. I've flown the CC Sport Cub and thought it was a fantastic airplane. I considered a purchase also, as well as a Legend Cub. The Sport Cub/ Legend Cub have higher empty weight too and you have to look at the weight distribution carefully too, but then personally I wouldn't have flown longer trips in them. In the end I decided against them as it wasn't my mission.

The Tecnam P2008 is a nice airplane for sure. So, when are you putting a deposit down?

Nomore767 wrote:Sure the same airframe and engine in Europe is certified to a higher max weight and the 'airplane can take it' but its not legal. Or safe.

Serious question. If the P2008 is certified with a higher max weight in Europe, and you bring that same exact plane to the US, wouldn't the plane be safe to the approved specs, just not legal?

discussions about higher weight LSAs usually tend to focus on the 600kg legal limit, or not being able to fill 2 seats.

extra weight degrades performance. I think extra weight is a killer: it can kill you at high density situations: did you ever have a delayed start at high elevation airport and watched OAT rise near midday?; or when you do a go-around and try to climb before flaps retract?; or need to get off the ground on short strip? it's hard on everything, e.g., brakes, suspension. heavier means a wider turning radius (think you'll never come across box canyon? ) high weight means more momentum in a forced landing (more mass and likely more velocity)

it is possible to build a fully-equipped (chute, autopilot, 2 screens) high performance LSA weighing under 750 lbs. it might cost more and maybe be less complicated, but it will be way safer