LSA Sting to be certified for IFR in IMC

[MrMorden]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Well, this discussion is more about the machine capabilities than pilot mission creep. I think everybody that flies is tempted to try to wring the most capability of their airplane they can. Airplanes are just too hideously expensive to do otherwise.

There is no technical reason that a well-equipped, modern LSA could not perform some "light" IMC work, like as Paul said punching through a thin layer to get on top. That's something I'm personally not too comfortable with, but then I have never had any real instrument training. For pilots who have had that training and experience, and are current, I don't think they should be limited by the fact that they fly an LSA.

As for night flight, I don't see any real problem with either LSA or Sport Pilots flying at night, assuming they have had the correct night training like a Private Pilot would receive. The FAA disagrees, and we're all bound by that. But just because those are the rules doesn't mean we all have to think they are the *best* possible set of rules.

[Wm.Ince]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Concur.
Something that has not even been tabled yet is icing.
As you well know, ice can accumulate pretty fast. Unless an aircraft is equipped to handle it or has the performance to readily escape it, it can be very dangerous. That has to be a consideration for anyone planning to fly IMC.
For me personally, no thank you.

[MrMorden]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Concur.
Something that has not even been tabled yet is icing.
As you well know, ice can accumulate pretty fast. Unless an aircraft is equipped to handle it or has the performance to readily escape it, it can be very dangerous. That has to be a consideration for anyone planning to fly IMC.
For me personally, no thank you.

You are not going to buy the new CT-FIKI when it comes out?

[dstclair]

As for night flight, I don't see any real problem with either LSA or Sport Pilots flying at night, assuming they have had the correct night training like a Private Pilot would receive. The FAA disagrees, and we're all bound by that. But just because those are the rules doesn't mean we all have to think they are the *best* possible set of rules.

We're combining two related concepts -- Sport Pilot and LSA -- which are really two distinct set of regulations. The FAA or ASTM does not restrict LSA from night flight if they are properly equipped so a PP (or higher) can legally do so. A Sport Pilot cannot.

Prior to the explicit restriction (circa 2011) a LSA manufacturer could add IMC as part of the LSA operating limits. A few planes have reportedly been approved. Once again, this doesn't help out the SP since an instrument rating cannot be added to an SP. PP's are a different story.

TL Ultralight actually will expand the operating limits for an aircraft that was built before the restriction that would include pretty much what Paul (and I) would like. They require FAA appropriate equipment plus no actual or forecast icing/T-storms/non-VFR ceilings within 50 miles of the route and only allows for cutting through a layer to VFR conditions. Current instrument rating is required of the pilot. They charge $$$ to do so (don't know the amount). I've been led to believe that this concept is part of the proposal for ASTM IMC along with complete IMC.

[MrMorden]

As for night flight, I don't see any real problem with either LSA or Sport Pilots flying at night, assuming they have had the correct night training like a Private Pilot would receive. The FAA disagrees, and we're all bound by that. But just because those are the rules doesn't mean we all have to think they are the *best* possible set of rules.

We're combining two related concepts -- Sport Pilot and LSA -- which are really two distinct set of regulations. The FAA or ASTM does not restrict LSA from night flight if they are properly equipped so a PP (or higher) can legally do so. A Sport Pilot cannot.

Yeah, I get that.

I find it odd that non-IMC night flight is classified as VFR flight, yet a VFR Sport Pilot is not qualified for it. I'm assuming this is a hold over from the Part 103 ultralight rules, which require day-only flying. But IMO there is not a rational basis for this restriction on LSA, even those of the "fat ultralight" style, if the aircraft is properly equipped and the pilot trained for night operations.

IIRC the only IFR-certified LSA were a few AMD 601-XL Zodiac planes (re-designated 601-XLi) that slipped through before FAA/ASTM shut that door as quickly as they possibly could.

[Nomore767]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Well, this discussion is more about the machine capabilities than pilot mission creep. I think everybody that flies is tempted to try to wring the most capability of their airplane they can. Airplanes are just too hideously expensive to do otherwise.

There is no technical reason that a well-equipped, modern LSA could not perform some "light" IMC work, like as Paul said punching through a thin layer to get on top. That's something I'm personally not too comfortable with, but then I have never had any real instrument training. For pilots who have had that training and experience, and are current, I don't think they should be limited by the fact that they fly an LSA.

As for night flight, I don't see any real problem with either LSA or Sport Pilots flying at night, assuming they have had the correct night training like a Private Pilot would receive. The FAA disagrees, and we're all bound by that. But just because those are the rules doesn't mean we all have to think they are the *best* possible set of rules.

No, no technical reason for not being able to perform some 'light IMC' work….but define 'light IMC' in the USA? In the UK there is, or used to be, an IMC rating allowing for GA pilots there to gain flexibility in the European weather by being able to fly in IMC but not conduct instrument approaches. Fly through a few clouds, descend through a layer and so on, with specific truing and rules, including currency.

I have an RV-12 SLSA built specifically to meet the light sport rules and in that, it's an excellent performer. A friend really likes it but wants to know know how difficult it would be to add the necessary equipment to allow for flying at night or in IFR. Reason? What if he's close to home but is blocked by nightfall or a few clouds. For me, I say plan better or just land and wait till tomorrow, dude, you're retired! Light sport isn't for him.
He is not untypical of guys who want to fly LSAs faster, heavier, at night, in clouds etc…my point is that they should perhaps reconsider their mission and look at the next category of GA planes and licensing and act accordingly. Maybe light sport isn't for them. Better to move up a level rather than push the sport envelope with devastating results.

Some schools might want to modify their LSAs to allow for more night or IFR training, to save money…but good luck with trying to ask manufacturers to do all the paperwork and other requirements just to meet this ,slim at best, market. Surely, manufacturers have designed airplanes to meet the sport rules specifically?

I don't agree with your point about the rules. The rules for light sport are exactly for that type of flying. Guys who want to 'just fly', do some cross country, fly-ins, and so on. They don't want to fly at night or in IFR. If they did then they can move into the next level of rules governing IFR and night flying.
When you start flying in IMC not only do the rules change but also the level of expertise required, and consideration for everyone else who is in the IFR system. There are enough pilots who ignore or flaunt the VFR rules now. Now add 'light IMC' into the mix? A poster on another forum started a thread about how good the Dynon SkyView would be to help him out if he got 'stuck on top'. Next he's talking about descending down through a layer, with low viz below all the way to the ground and then trying to pull up some kind of approach plate and do a 'basic ILS' to safely land. Seriously?

Nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of your LSA and the sport pilot flying rules. However, if you now want to start flying at night, in IMC and so on…why not just go for it, get a PPL or better, add an IR and fly an airplane designed and equipped for that very purpose?

[Nomore767]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Concur.
Something that has not even been tabled yet is icing.
As you well know, ice can accumulate pretty fast. Unless an aircraft is equipped to handle it or has the performance to readily escape it, it can be very dangerous. That has to be a consideration for anyone planning to fly IMC.
For me personally, no thank you.

When I was working as a CFII many years ago we had a contract to teach students going through a PPL, CPL, IR program. One day when the weather was marginal VFR, occasional IFR, I flied IFR and we flew three legs in a 172 doing a VOR approach, and a couple of ILS approaches with weather well above minimums. The student was awed at actually flying in actual weather instead of just wearing the training hood. I did this as an exercise so they could see just what 'actual' IFR was…not just an exercise in maneuvering with the hood on.
The called for clearances, read them back, flew in the cloud and…unforecast we picked up some light rime ice. Not much but I asked them what they were going to do now? It was a great exercise in task management, weather knowledge, and self-discipline…all whilst flying accurately by reference to instruments. They couldn't peak around the mask to get a sneak view.

Eventually the school stopped doing this for whatever reason or liability but the students said they'd learned more from that then just being under the hood.

To me I always approached night flying, even in VFR, as being about the same as light IMC. Hey, ever flown from the well lit east coast of FL at night to the Bahamas? Over water, perfect VFR and flying in a black hole.
I flew a 727 into Puerta Plata at night on the VOR approach in perfect VFR but over the jungle and the sea it was totally dark and totally on instruments. The runway lighting wasn't great and the most visible 'light' was from the waves crashing on the shore on final. The lack of runway centerline lights made depth perception tough.
I found this more difficult in many respects than doing a low visibility approach in low IFR to CAT II or IIIb weather in Europe.

[MrMorden]

Whenever guys start talking about flying an LSA in IMC/IFR I have to wonder what their 'mission' is. Light Sport is day VFR, 3 statute miles viz with ground contact, no night. Max weight 1320lbs and max sped 120kts. Inevitably there is a push for faster, higher, night, and often IFR.

Seems to me those that want to need to just move up to the level of flying the provides that.

I have a friend contemplating flying in retirement and is interested in light sport but wants to be able to fly at night and in IMC if he 'needs' to to get back from a trip. When I pointed out that he should fly a non-LSA he said why can't he just add the equipment so he can fly at night and IFR?

I just can't see why some don't seem to get it.

Well, this discussion is more about the machine capabilities than pilot mission creep. I think everybody that flies is tempted to try to wring the most capability of their airplane they can. Airplanes are just too hideously expensive to do otherwise.

There is no technical reason that a well-equipped, modern LSA could not perform some "light" IMC work, like as Paul said punching through a thin layer to get on top. That's something I'm personally not too comfortable with, but then I have never had any real instrument training. For pilots who have had that training and experience, and are current, I don't think they should be limited by the fact that they fly an LSA.

As for night flight, I don't see any real problem with either LSA or Sport Pilots flying at night, assuming they have had the correct night training like a Private Pilot would receive. The FAA disagrees, and we're all bound by that. But just because those are the rules doesn't mean we all have to think they are the *best* possible set of rules.

No, no technical reason for not being able to perform some 'light IMC' work….but define 'light IMC' in the USA? In the UK there is, or used to be, an IMC rating allowing for GA pilots there to gain flexibility in the European weather by being able to fly in IMC but not conduct instrument approaches. Fly through a few clouds, descend through a layer and so on, with specific truing and rules, including currency.

I have an RV-12 SLSA built specifically to meet the light sport rules and in that, it's an excellent performer. A friend really likes it but wants to know know how difficult it would be to add the necessary equipment to allow for flying at night or in IFR. Reason? What if he's close to home but is blocked by nightfall or a few clouds. For me, I say plan better or just land and wait till tomorrow, dude, you're retired! Light sport isn't for him.
He is not untypical of guys who want to fly LSAs faster, heavier, at night, in clouds etc…my point is that they should perhaps reconsider their mission and look at the next category of GA planes and licensing and act accordingly. Maybe light sport isn't for them. Better to move up a level rather than push the sport envelope with devastating results.

Some schools might want to modify their LSAs to allow for more night or IFR training, to save money…but good luck with trying to ask manufacturers to do all the paperwork and other requirements just to meet this ,slim at best, market. Surely, manufacturers have designed airplanes to meet the sport rules specifically?

I don't agree with your point about the rules. The rules for light sport are exactly for that type of flying. Guys who want to 'just fly', do some cross country, fly-ins, and so on. They don't want to fly at night or in IFR. If they did then they can move into the next level of rules governing IFR and night flying.
When you start flying in IMC not only do the rules change but also the level of expertise required, and consideration for everyone else who is in the IFR system. There are enough pilots who ignore or flaunt the VFR rules now. Now add 'light IMC' into the mix? A poster on another forum started a thread about how good the Dynon SkyView would be to help him out if he got 'stuck on top'. Next he's talking about descending down through a layer, with low viz below all the way to the ground and then trying to pull up some kind of approach plate and do a 'basic ILS' to safely land. Seriously?

Nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of your LSA and the sport pilot flying rules. However, if you now want to start flying at night, in IMC and so on…why not just go for it, get a PPL or better, add an IR and fly an airplane designed and equipped for that very purpose?

I understand, and I mostly agree. I do think there should be an ad-on endorsement for Sport Pilots to fly at night though.

Not that I want to go making 400 mile cross country legs in the dead of night. But it would be good occasionally to not have to "race the sun" to get back to my home airfield when flying around the local area with friends.

[3Dreaming]

Andy, I had a private pilot student that is restricted from night flight. He failed all of the different test for color blindness. My guess is since you don't get tested for color blindness to be a sport pilot the FAA does not grant the night flying privileges.

[Jack Tyler]

" I really would not want to be flying in really serious weather (mod-sev turbulence, heavy convection) in any light single."

I'm with Andy, and I fly a 4-seat, 2400# single including occasionally IFR.

Somewhat contrary to Howard's point, I found there could be multiple purposes to be served if an LSA could be "certified" (maybe 'approved' is the better term) for IFR. That's why I was working with the Orlando FSDO to clarify how to get approval for an E-LSA RV-12 to be so equipped before I realized LSA's just didn't have the volume & useful load we'd end up needing. Paul has mentioned the classic one, which describes my rural airport perfectly. As the ground layer begins to lift, I can file and make what I believe is a safe departure about 30-60 mins before the field goes full VFR. (In Florida, leaving early = better flying). The plane never feels a whiffle. Another example: Some of my very pleasant memories entail flights to pick up my son from University when the full trip out & back couldn't all be flown VFR but hardly presented significant weather. I also felt I was - up to a point - a safer pilot when picking him up during the winters, when the trip was essentially all night flying out & back, because I was instrument current. Didn't make the soft flat spots easier to find in case of an emergency, tho'. However, for me the alarm bell begins to ring when Howard's friend wants IFR capability for 'when he wants to get back'. That sounds like a slippery slope...

[SportPilot]

.......

[MrMorden]

Andy, I had a private pilot student that is restricted from night flight. He failed all of the different test for color blindness. My guess is since you don't get tested for color blindness to be a sport pilot the FAA does not grant the night flying privileges.

Agreed, but there's no reason that the FAA could not allow an endorsement for night flight with the same night training as a PP, a vision test, and a CFI endorsement. If that were in place you'd have the same level of safety as a PP. Throw in disorientation physiology training too if you want.

[MrMorden]

"Mr FAA, please create a class of airplane and a certificate so I can fly without a medical." Done, we now have LSA and Sport Pilot. "Mr FAA, thank you, but now, I am no longer satisfied. Please let me exercise my Private and Instrument privileges without a medical." We are never satisfied and always want more.

Welcome to the human condition. There are few people making $100,000 per year who would not like to be making $200,000.

Constantly wanting to improved our conditions is kind of how we got into skyscrapers from caves.

[Nomore767]

" I really would not want to be flying in really serious weather (mod-sev turbulence, heavy convection) in any light single."

I'm with Andy, and I fly a 4-seat, 2400# single including occasionally IFR.

Somewhat contrary to Howard's point, I found there could be multiple purposes to be served if an LSA could be "certified" (maybe 'approved' is the better term) for IFR. That's why I was working with the Orlando FSDO to clarify how to get approval for an E-LSA RV-12 to be so equipped before I realized LSA's just didn't have the volume & useful load we'd end up needing. Paul has mentioned the classic one, which describes my rural airport perfectly. As the ground layer begins to lift, I can file and make what I believe is a safe departure about 30-60 mins before the field goes full VFR. (In Florida, leaving early = better flying). The plane never feels a whiffle. Another example: Some of my very pleasant memories entail flights to pick up my son from University when the full trip out & back couldn't all be flown VFR but hardly presented significant weather. I also felt I was - up to a point - a safer pilot when picking him up during the winters, when the trip was essentially all night flying out & back, because I was instrument current. Didn't make the soft flat spots easier to find in case of an emergency, tho'. However, for me the alarm bell begins to ring when Howard's friend wants IFR capability for 'when he wants to get back'. That sounds like a slippery slope...

Jack, if you're instrument rated , and so is your airplane, you can decide to file IFR and depart under much reduced minimums from the VFR guy. To you its a temporary ground layer and your study and experience as an instrument rated pilot allows for a feel for it to break up in a short while but meanwhile you can go. That's the benefit of the IR. To the sport pilot with say a 'light IMC' endorsement he might now be tempted into something best left alone and if all he wants really is to enjoy sport flying, waiting out the light ground layer to lift is a tinny price to pay.
On the other hand your neighbor, the sport pilot, sees you go but knows he needs 3 statute miles and constant ground contact. He can leave in an hour after the layer lifted.
Problem arises with legality and what constitutes light IMC, IMC , or worse. They would have to develop a whole rule set to determine light IMC such that the sport pilot with the IMC endorsement could now legally operate. Would they now likely have to require that the sport pilot with IMC now has to meet the medical requirements of a PPL? What about insurance?

How do you propose to rectify LSAs designed for sport flying specifically so that a tiny minor it 'may' want occasionally to fly in light IMC or at night?
I believe the Rotax engine isn't certified for IFR and maybe not for night. Plus, then the plane has to be certified as regards pitot static, transponder etc
What if that light layer was actually freezing fog?

[Nomore767]

Andy, I had a private pilot student that is restricted from night flight. He failed all of the different test for color blindness. My guess is since you don't get tested for color blindness to be a sport pilot the FAA does not grant the night flying privileges.

Agreed, but there's no reason that the FAA could not allow an endorsement for night flight with the same night training as a PP, a vision test, and a CFI endorsement. If that were in place you'd have the same level of safety as a PP. Throw in disorientation physiology training too if you want.

The FAA DO allow for flying at night along with other levels of training and privileges…it's called the PPL. If that's what you want to do, fly as a PPL. If you don't then fly as a sport pilot.