Odd thing that happened today

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:11 am

bottleworks wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:From my conversations with both Vans and Dynon, they have a unit, Skyview, that is ADS-B IN/OUT. The FAA say they require a certified GPS source whereas Dynon's is non-certified, although it works just the same. As such Skyview isn't 2020 compliant because of it's GPS source.


I think I understand your confusion. The "Unit" is the transponder, not the SV. The transponder is 2020 ready. The transponder is separate from the SV. BUT! you must provide it with a Non-SV, 2020 compliant GPS source. Not from SV. (At this time).

This is what I said earlier:-

"From my conversations with both Vans and Dynon, they have a unit, Skyview, that is ADS-B IN/OUT. The FAA say they require a certified GPS source whereas Dynon's is non-certified, although it works just the same. As such Skyview isn't 2020 compliant because of it's GPS source.

It's 2015, and the mandate is for 1-1-2020. In the meantime, from my conversations, Dynon are monitoring the FAA for any changes in policy whilst working on a 'module' (everything is a module) which may eventually meet the current 2020 mandate, or a relaxed mandate for aircraft such as light sport."

I don't think there is 'confusion' per se.
The transponder is part of Skyview via the module. We're talking about the same thing I believe.

http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyVi ... R-26X.html

Either way I know Dynon isn't going to spend their own money developing the same thing as several other manufacturers who are already getting close to acceptable solutions. Dynon told me they're looking at how to incorporate solutions into Skyview. A new module, modify an existing module, add something from another manufacturer, or will the FAA relax the rule? No one knows yet.
But things move fast in the avionics world.

3Dreaming
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed May 06, 2015 10:28 am

Jack Tyler wrote:Well, I surely agree with Point #2...but I think Point #1 is a wide of the mark. One reason that is an apples vs. oranges comparison is that those certified GA a/c have been around now for 3 to 6 decades, their capabilities and weaknesses are repetitiously duplicated over and over in magazine articles, and the large installed base means you can get fairly accurate poop on any make & model simply by walking the hangars at most airports. LSA's simply don't have that kind of market penetration yet. Another reason I disagree is that the selection of these many 'venerable' models of certified a/c is far more diverse. No low MTOW limit, no low'ish speed limit, no low crew/passenger limit was applied to Part 23 a/c. I can carry a piano as baggage in a C-210, go lickety split in a Commanche that's older than most pilots, or spend half the cost of my new Mazda 3 and own my own plane. There's a lot of difference between the Part 23 and LSA a/c choices, seems to me.


Jack, I am not really sure what your agenda is, but it seems like you are trying to create a divide where one does not exist. A LSA is not defined by how it is certified, but by meeting the requirements of CFR 1.1. The simple fact is, there are a larger percentage of standard category LSA than there are LSA with a airworthiness certificates issued in the light sport category in operation in the USA.

Another point is the MTOW and speed limits for LSA are not tied to the aircraft design and certification, they are regulatory limits imposed by the FAA that define the type of aircraft. Any standard category aircraft the meets the requirements is a LSA. This is similar to any aircraft with a MTOW of more than 12,500 pounds is considered a large aircraft regardless of the aircrafts actual size. Once again this is a regulatory limit that defines the type of aircraft and not based on certification basis.

Also as a side point the C-210 and Comanche are not part 23 aircraft. Their certification basis is CAR 3, with a little part 23 added in for the later model 210's.

Jack Tyler
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Jack Tyler » Thu May 07, 2015 8:40 am

[from Howard] "That was Dave's point, not mine. Just checking."

Yup, just trying to respond to two thoughts in a single post.

No agenda, 3Dreaming, other than to say I didn't agree with what seemed like an apples to oranges comparison.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

SportPilot
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby SportPilot » Thu May 07, 2015 4:29 pm

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Last edited by SportPilot on Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Thu May 07, 2015 8:14 pm

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby FastEddieB » Thu May 07, 2015 8:32 pm

bottleworks wrote:
A sport pilot can operate some type certificated aircraft, but that aircraft by definition, isn't an LSA.


Actually, by the FAA's definition those planes are Light Sport Aircraft.


Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or feathering propeller system if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Thu May 07, 2015 8:58 pm

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby FastEddieB » Fri May 08, 2015 6:51 am

Thanks.

The FAR I quoted was actually from FAR Part 1, 1.1 - General Definitions.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/1.1

When I first attended Prof. Shuch's seminar, "Stepping Up To Light Sport", he said it was best to refer to the Cubs and Ercoupes and the like as "Light Sport Eligible" to avoid confusion, since they were not really Light Sports.

I'm pretty sure that his course changed a tiny bit to reflect the FAA's definition as shown above, and that now, while still being certified as Standard Category, they can still be defined as Light Sports.

I think if there was ever a test question asking, "Is a Cub a Light Sport?" the correct answer would be, "Yes - assuming from the time it was certified it continued to meet Light Sport requirements."

If I have any of this wrong, I will yield to Prof. Shuch! Or logic!!!

Regardless, it's just semantics! :wink:
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

SportPilot
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby SportPilot » Fri May 08, 2015 8:19 am

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Merlinspop
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Merlinspop » Fri May 08, 2015 8:22 am

Bottleworks,

Sorry, it is you who is somewhat incorrect. Yes, it is splitting hairs, but "LSA" is defined as Eddie and others have pointed out and can be of multiple certification categories and all can be flown by Sport Pilots. E-LSA and S-LSA, as you point out, are certification categories. In practical terms, the certification category has a greater impact on who can maintain and inspect them. ANY LSA can be flown by a SP (with appropriate training and sign offs, as required) or a higher licensed pilot.
- Bruce

3Dreaming
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri May 08, 2015 8:33 am

bottleworks wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:A LSA is not defined by how it is certified, but by meeting the requirements of CFR 1.1. The simple fact is, there are a larger percentage of standard category LSA than there are LSA with a airworthiness certificates issued in the light sport category in operation in the USA.



No. An LSA is defined not by who can operate it, but how it was certified. An LSA will never have have a standard airworthiness certificate/type certificate. 100% of aircraft defined as LSAs will have a pink Special Airworthiness Certificate with operating limits.

A sport pilot can operate some type certificated aircraft, but that aircraft by definition, isn't an LSA. An LSRM-A can't work on it. Only an A&P.


You are confusing aircraft with airworthiness certificates. If you look at the CFR 1.1 definition it defines a Light Sport Aircraft (LSA). CFR part 1 provides definitions for all aspects of the regulations.

The special "pink " certificates that you mention are issued to light sport aircraft that have never had a airworthiness certificate issued to them before. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 0&rgn=div8
The "pink" certificates are actually issued to any aircraft that does not have a standard airworthiness certificate.

As for maintenance if you take a look at part 43 and 65 you will see that the FAA grants privileges based on the airworthiness certificate that is issued to the aircraft, and not what kind of aircraft it is. Here is the link to the LSRM, you can look the others up if you want.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SI ... 7&rgn=div8

Here is a list of standard category Light Sport Aircraft provided by the FAA.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/lig ... Models.pdf

I have been studying the sport pilot and light sport aircraft regulations since they came out in 2004. As a Instructor and mechanic who is working with these aircraft I need to know and understand the regulations. I will say that I have been wrong before, but in this case If you check with the Light Sport Aircraft Division I think you find I am spot on. Their number is 405-954-6400 if you want to call.

3Dreaming
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri May 08, 2015 8:45 am

SportPilot wrote:I think Light Sport Aircraft can correctly mean two different things. It can mean all aircraft that meet, and have always met, the light sport definition since manufacture, regardless of certification. Light Sport Aircraft can also mean aircraft manufactured under the light sport definitions since they were put in place and are certified as such. I think we are using one term to describe two different, but overlapping universe of aircraft. The FAA seems to embrace the former definition except when it comes to maintenance requirements and who can perform said maintenance.


Please don't take this as an attack on you, because it is not. Maintenance requirements are based on the airworthiness certificate that has been issued to the aircraft. To get a airworthiness certificate in the Light Sport Category the aircraft must first meet the CFR 1.1 definition. That is the only definition of a light sport aircraft in the eyes of the FAA. In addition to being a light sport aircraft it must also meet other criteria as set forth in CFR 21.190 to be issued a airworthiness certificate.

bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Fri May 08, 2015 6:49 pm

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby FastEddieB » Fri May 08, 2015 7:39 pm

bottleworks wrote:Exactly. All LSAs are under 21.190. Being allowed to fly (as a sport pilot) a certificated aircraft DOESN'T make it an LSA.


Again, according to the FAA it does.

In black and white.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Fri May 08, 2015 7:51 pm

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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