Odd thing that happened today

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Mon May 04, 2015 10:35 pm

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SportPilot
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby SportPilot » Mon May 04, 2015 11:15 pm

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Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 04, 2015 11:16 pm

bottleworks wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Dynon are busy putting out new products but not putting as much $$ into the support side is all I'm saying, in my view. My recent experience is that their position is 'we're busy', just send it in, and needing to get off the phone without seeming to really be listening. That's MY experience. It's concerning that my plane is grounded and it could be for several weeks. I get that. 'Some time' of course, but...


I wouldn't want any company to put the same about of money into support as product production and R&D. If a company sells 1M in product, shouldn't need to spend 1M in support, unless something is seriously wrong with the products.
From what you have stated earlier, they have been supporting you. They are repairing your unit and have diagnosed your unit free of charge. They also have great support forums. I understand your frustrations, but they are misdirected. The cause of your issue isn't clear. Unless you want to put a scope on your aircraft and start repeating your ignition switch flip, you can't say for sure if the Skyview failed due to an internal problem or an external. The only thing you know is that is currently has an internal failure - cause unknown.

And sometimes things fail prematurely. Happens with people, places, and things.


I didn't say the company should put in an EQUAL amount of money into support as they do into product. What I tried to say (badly) was that they could be putting more money into tech support. Waiting 5 hours for anyone to answer other than the phone recording or the operator isn't good in my book.

Yes, they are providing a 'level of support'. They certainly aren't repairing and diagnosing my unit 'free of charge'. So far I'm out $135 for shipping and insurance, which they won't cover (I asked).
Don't forget, this is a 9 month old unit with 118 hours on it. The cause of the issue IS clear, because Dynon have said what it is. They've said the memory module is 'failing/failed' and have confirmed this form the diagnostics file I downloaded from the Skyview and then sent to them in an e-mail. Because of this they told me to ship it to them.
They also said my momentarily switching ignition modules wasn't the problem.
One of their managers told me that they've had enough 'issues' with the vendor of my particular memory module that they now use a different one. So they've known about it.

I don't believe my frustration is misdirected.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Mon May 04, 2015 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Mon May 04, 2015 11:37 pm

bottleworks wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:I have the 261 transponder and ADS-B but I believe that the Skyview isn't yet 2020 compliant as far as approved GPS source in my airplane, although it is is IN/OUT.



The Skyview will never be a 2020 compliant GPS source (at the time of writing this, from direct statements from Dynon). The effort and promise is for the transponder. To be 2020, you have to provide a different GPS source to the transponder. It's now 2020.


Can you post these 'direct statements' from Dynon which states that Skyview will never be a '2020 compliant GPS source'?

From my conversations with both Vans and Dynon, they have a unit, Skyview, that is ADS-B IN/OUT. The FAA say they require a certified GPS source whereas Dynon's is non-certified, although it works just the same. As such Skyview isn't 2020 compliant because of it's GPS source.

It's 2015, and the mandate is for 1-1-2020. In the meantime, from my conversations, Dynon are monitoring the FAA for any changes in policy whilst working on a 'module' (everything is a module) which may eventually meet the current 2020 mandate, or a relaxed mandate for aircraft such as light sport.

Jack Tyler
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Jack Tyler » Tue May 05, 2015 6:34 am

Howard, I believe your understanding of what's needed for Skyview to be 2020 compliant is correct...or at least it's the same as mine.

I didn't mean to suggest YOU are looking for a free lunch. Rather, I meant to reference the dialogue that's been present here (and everywhere else, no doubt) that integrated glass panel systems make system failures possible whereas a collection of standalone instruments avoid that problem. To your point - and for those folks who are monitoring these discussions with an eye to a svelte, 'modern' LSA - the free lunch is incorporated in the marketing kitsch about the system's wonderful capabilities without a reference to its vulnerabilities.

I think you've sorted out the best back-up option for you, given how you describe what you want: an iPad Air and (moveable) suction mount, coupled to your Bad Elf & running FF. I couldn't imagine you needing a Stratus I or II. Buying the non-4G iPad (because you have the Bad Elf) is compensated for, to some extent, by linking your phone & iPad flight plans. That way, if you e.g. wanted to activate a flight plan or cancel it from the plane, you could do that via the iPhone. Personally, I find it wonderful to be liberated from a laptop when making multi-day runs...but OTOH it doesn't sound like you spend (m)any nights on the road in your RV12.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Tue May 05, 2015 8:28 am

Jack,

I think we're in agreement regarding a 'free lunch'. We both agree, I think, that despite the major advances in technology regarding avionics, engines and portables etc which have been good for GA and Light Sport in particular, the real-world support network hasn't been as good. I certainly think in many ways LSAs are 'over-sold'.

For example fuel. Numerous aviation articles, magazines, blogs etc tout Rotax engines that 'sip auto gas'. They sell it to prospective owners as if they can simply stop by their local gas station and fill up. Of course getting into the details we find that non-ethanol higher octane fuels are best, not regular gas, yet they can be hard to find, if not impossible, in some parts of the country. Here in SC there is only one field that I know of that has 93 non-ethanol on the pump. There are a few gas stations that sell it, and many more that sell non-ethanol 87/89 which isn't suitable.
Some manufacturers 'approve' the use of E10 91 octane, my airplane included, but a read of Rich's plight , on this forum, regarding his experience with E10 and the apparent effects on his Sting is a real eye opener.
Of course LSAs with Rotax engines are also sold as being able to use 100LL avgas and they can. What's not said is the effects of lead on the engine and it's components as well as more regular oil changes, the extra expense of this and more frequent inspections and overhauls of gear boxes. They rarely mention, if at all, the lead scavengers such as Decalin which would be added at each 100LL refueling, and which would need to ordered on-line as it's not readily available at most airports.

What's also not readily available is a network of Rotax qualified repairmen and service centers. Yes, they're out there for sure but it's not like they're at every local airport. My guy is about 100 miles from my field. I don't know of anyone else that isn't farther away still.
Sure, you can take service and maintenance courses, and many do. It's just not talked about by the salesmen because it's negative to many customers.
The benefits of lighter weight composite fuselages are often touted especially in the LSAs from Europe. What's not spoken about is that they are more difficult and costly to repair. Time consuming and expensive. One maintenance shop I spoke to, doing my research into LSAs, had nobody actually qualified on Rotax or composites and would in turn bring their 'Rotax guy' in from a distance. They could do routine servicing etc but they hated the airplane and having to contact the manufacturer in Europe.

"You can just pop the wings off and trailer this baby home. Keep it in your garage or driveway and save a ton on hangar costs." It's true, my RV-12 has removable wings. A video shows 2 Vans guys removing them in just a few minutes. For MY mission, of keeping it simple enough that I can do it on my own and not take a whole lot of time in order to get flying, I opt to keep the wings on and rent a hangar.
If I were to trailer the plane I'd need a vehicle strong enough to do it and an appropriate trailer. Rolling it onto a regular trailer isn't good enough. You need a specially adapted trailer to do it. There are manufacturers for this and they run say $10k-$12K.
I would still need a second person to detach the wings and help load it on the trailer, and maybe take it off at home if I want to put it in the garage. Then I'd need to do it in reverse at the airport, where they likely will still charge a rental fee for a tie down in order to allow you to park the truck and trailer whilst you fly. At my last field $65mo versus $100 for a large shade hangar. Not so much of a savings really.
Have you ever read an article about this when they review the latest LSA with removable wings?

BRS parachutes. I don't have one, and it's not an option on my plane. They undoubtedly are effective and have saved lives. Usually, however, articles mention them but don't speak about the extra weight, cost, and inspection and replacement. They certainly don't mention that once pulled the airplane is likely totaled. Of course, saving a life is paramount, but to me anyway, it always comes across as 'pull the cute, walk away, get to fly another day' and may just leave the wrong impression unless the prospective customer does some homework and knows more about BRS chutes and their operation.

Weight. LSAs are all about weight, empty weight in particular. It's true, most customers want the latest and greatest in options, avionics and features. It's not until they try to contemplate their 'mission' that they find the 'cost' of the additional weight and what they can really do, especially if their now higher empty weight prohibits being able to fly 2 people, full gas and bags. Sure, it's an issue in most planes, but in order to move units many sales folk simply gloss over this when dealing with the customer. I know of one guy with buyers remorse who has a fabulous LSA but with such a high empty weight he can barely fly himself with half tanks. Trying to take his wife allows for about an hour a bit of fuel, no bags. Very frustrated guy. Just saying.

This is not intended to be negative or diss light sport in any way. After all I did my research and once becoming aware of many of these things I still chose an LSA. My choice, and the other contenders, however, were definitely based on an educated research along with demos and talking to those in the 'real world'. My circumstances are such that being retired and living in SC, I have a reasonable chance of meeting my flying 'mission.

This what I think we both agree with when we talk about 'no free lunch'.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Tue May 05, 2015 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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deltafox
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby deltafox » Tue May 05, 2015 11:09 am

A very good discussion, thanks.

As we've said many times before on this forum, 1) define your mission, 2) determine the cost.

Fuel. I burn premium car gas 80% of the time. It's hard to find MOGAS at airports on cross country flights so I'm forced to use 100LL. I'm glad to have the option and using MOGAS with ethanol has saved me money. My airplane is all metal with metal fuel tanks, ethanol has a minimal impact. However, my shopping list (mission statement) put an all-metal airplane near the top of my requirement list. (I had rented a Cirrus and was concerned about hangar rash on glass.) Even changing the oil every 25 hours my fuel/oil costs are cheap compared to other GA aircraft.

ROTAX Support. I agree good A&Ps are hard to find. (for all category aircraft.) I will fly 100 miles to find a good one, fortunately I have one at my home field. On the plus side, I can do some stuff myself.

BRS: I had a good conversation with my insurance guy about pulling the chute. He agrees the airplane would be totaled.

Weight. I'm a fat, bald, old guy so this one is a problem. However, there really aren't too many GA aircraft that can take four people, full tanks and luggage. The efficiency of the modern ROTAX allows me reasonable endurance of 2 hours plus reserve with my wife and her shoes. TAS at 110+ kts gives me reasonable range with my old man's bladder. I really do wish I could carry more, but 1320lbs is the law. (unless you bargained for exceptions.)

My point is that I don't see much difference between the over-inflated promises of certified GA planes and LSAs. Salesmen will sell. I agree that you are not going to find the "bad stuff" unless you really dig...or read forums like this one.
Dave

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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby SportPilot » Tue May 05, 2015 11:34 am

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bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Wed May 06, 2015 12:17 am

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
Last edited by bottleworks on Fri May 08, 2015 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bottleworks
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby bottleworks » Wed May 06, 2015 12:23 am

(I'm gone. Everything deleted! Too much Ignorant data spread here).
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Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Wed May 06, 2015 7:43 am

Nomore767 wrote:
bottleworks wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:I have the 261 transponder and ADS-B but I believe that the Skyview isn't yet 2020 compliant as far as approved GPS source in my airplane, although it is is IN/OUT.



The Skyview will never be a 2020 compliant GPS source (at the time of writing this, from direct statements from Dynon). The effort and promise is for the transponder. To be 2020, you have to provide a different GPS source to the transponder. It's now 2020.


Can you post these 'direct statements' from Dynon which states that Skyview will never be a '2020 compliant GPS source'?

From my conversations with both Vans and Dynon, they have a unit, Skyview, that is ADS-B IN/OUT. The FAA say they require a certified GPS source whereas Dynon's is non-certified, although it works just the same. As such Skyview isn't 2020 compliant because of it's GPS source.

It's 2015, and the mandate is for 1-1-2020. In the meantime, from my conversations, Dynon are monitoring the FAA for any changes in policy whilst working on a 'module' (everything is a module) which may eventually meet the current 2020 mandate, or a relaxed
mandate for aircraft such as light sport.


This discussion may be semantics. Skyview is a whole system as in , it's all built in. I have a SV-XPNDR-261 module as a transponder rather than the traditional separate transponder unit in the panel. As such I say "Skyview's GPS source" whereas you say "it's the GPS source for the transponder". Okay, I think we're talking about the same thing really, the outcome is the same. You may disagree.
From my conversation with Vans and Dynon the Skyview does a pretty good job with ADS-B IN/OUT already except that the GPS source isn't 'certified' and so doesn't meet the FAA mandate. I gather that the difference in the end is a question of how many feet (meters) accuracy one source is over others. Hence, the wait to see if the FAA relaxes the rule for say Experimentals and Light Sport. On the other hand ADS-B is really all about separating the big boys from the rest and so they're not indicating any relaxing of their mandate.
Everyone is waiting to see what the FAA do, or don't, and if the industry produces a 'fix' that the FAA would deem acceptable other than the certified sources available now. Dynon doesn't appear to be eager to essentially work against themselves for now to 'fix' it but rather see what the market is doing also.
Dynon has said that the time from now, 2015 till 1-1-2020 is a lifetime in the avionics world .

Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Wed May 06, 2015 7:52 am

bottleworks wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:From my conversations with both Vans and Dynon, they have a unit, Skyview, that is ADS-B IN/OUT. The FAA say they require a certified GPS source whereas Dynon's is non-certified, although it works just the same. As such Skyview isn't 2020 compliant because of it's GPS source.


I think I understand your confusion. The "Unit" is the transponder, not the SV. The transponder is 2020 ready. The transponder is separate from the SV. BUT! you must provide it with a Non-SV, 2020 compliant GPS source. Not from SV. (At this time).


The transponder 'module' SV-XPNDR-261 is part of Skyview, and as you say is ready for 2020. The current GPS for it is pretty accurate and does a great job for ADS-B IN/OUT…it's just not 2020 compliant. So, how do they make it 2020 compliant? That's the question.
From the discussions I've had with Vans and Dynon it's also a matter of whether the FAA may relax their demand for a somewhat higher level of accuracy from Experimental/LSA in order to provide a few more feet/meters in airspace where they are unlikely to go most of the time.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Wed May 06, 2015 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Wed May 06, 2015 8:00 am

"And on the other stuff, aircraft are expensive. They are a hole in the sky for your money. Sometimes it's a bummer. And every feature you add or remove from the A/C has tradeoffs. Those are the choices which get made during the purchase. Assuming you own an S-LSA, you need to get your LSRM or find someone qualified to perform the work. Rotax classes doesn't allow you to work on your engine.'

I think if you re-read my post, everything you say I mentioned already.

The features/options etc added/removed ARE tradeoffs for the owner's 'mission' and the capability of the plane. Many don't look at this carefully enough and suffer later with airplanes too heavy (with options that they discovered they didn't need) to complete their 'mission'. It IS a bummer especially if it could have been avoided with a little more thought. Yes, there are trade-offs, hence our point about the 'no free lunch.

I'm aware of the limits to owner maintenance on SLSAs, even if you've completed the courses. But if you chose the ELSA route then you can do more. Again, it's one of the myths I've had thrown at me….'hey, you can work on your own plane in your garage!". They just didn't add the caveat. Buyer beware.
Last edited by Nomore767 on Wed May 06, 2015 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jack Tyler
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Jack Tyler » Wed May 06, 2015 8:37 am

Howard, that was an excellent summary of 'free lunch' examples as they apply to the Light Sport slice of GA. I agree with every point. (Actually, I think I've previously written each of those points! But no doubt not as well). And then there's the parallel 'free lunch' promised by the SP license itself. Based on the past 3 years of posts here, the major issue with the license seems to be the geographically limited bootstrapping of SP training and rental fleets around the country, especially outside major population centers. So WRT the combined LSA and SPL 'industry', doing one's research is as critical as defining one's mission. And yet, on the 'glass half full' side of things, look at all the sheer pleasure folks are getting from Light Sport flying. We - collectively, as GA pilots and aircraft owners - are far better off with the advent of sport aviation than we were before it arrived, no matter which category/class of a/c we fly.

"My point is that I don't see much difference between the over-inflated promises of certified GA planes and LSAs. Salesmen will sell."

Well, I surely agree with Point #2...but I think Point #1 is a wide of the mark. One reason that is an apples vs. oranges comparison is that those certified GA a/c have been around now for 3 to 6 decades, their capabilities and weaknesses are repetitiously duplicated over and over in magazine articles, and the large installed base means you can get fairly accurate poop on any make & model simply by walking the hangars at most airports. LSA's simply don't have that kind of market penetration yet. Another reason I disagree is that the selection of these many 'venerable' models of certified a/c is far more diverse. No low MTOW limit, no low'ish speed limit, no low crew/passenger limit was applied to Part 23 a/c. I can carry a piano as baggage in a C-210, go lickety split in a Commanche that's older than most pilots, or spend half the cost of my new Mazda 3 and own my own plane. There's a lot of difference between the Part 23 and LSA a/c choices, seems to me.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

Nomore767
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Re: Odd thing that happened today

Postby Nomore767 » Wed May 06, 2015 8:49 am

"My point is that I don't see much difference between the over-inflated promises of certified GA planes and LSAs. Salesmen will sell."

"Well, I surely agree with Point #2...but I think Point #1 is a wide of the mark. One reason that is an apples vs. oranges comparison is that those certified GA a/c have been around now for 3 to 6 decades, their capabilities and weaknesses are repetitiously duplicated over and over in magazine articles, and the large installed base means you can get fairly accurate poop on any make & model simply by walking the hangars at most airports. LSA's simply don't have that kind of market penetration yet. Another reason I disagree is that the selection of these many 'venerable' models of certified a/c is far more diverse. No low MTOW limit, no low'ish speed limit, no low crew/passenger limit was applied to Part 23 a/c. I can carry a piano as baggage in a C-210, go lickety split in a Commanche that's older than most pilots, or spend half the cost of my new Mazda 3 and own my own plane. There's a lot of difference between the Part 23 and LSA a/c choices, seems to me."

Jack,

That was Dave's point, not mine. Just checking.


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