Impossible Turn

[SportPilot]

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[MrMorden]

I have enjoyed this discussion and have added some insights on how to make my take off brief. Assuming a field elevation of 500': 1) Below 800' land straight ahead ~ hopefully on the runway. 2)Above 800' raise flaps and know that the BRS is now available. 3) 1200' turn crosswind and know that the "impossible turn" is now an option.

Do I have that right?

The impossible turn is not an option below pattern altitude. That's your mental note. Use the chute at any time but the best success with it is 400 ft agl. Otherwise, when you are on takeoff roll be ready to set it back down on the runway or straight out somewhere just beyond it.

You do not need to be at 1000' AGL to make that turn safely.

[SportPilot]

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[FastEddieB]

I told my sister, I think women turn into men as they get older. Less estrogen makes them more aggressive. I think men turn into women. Less testosterone makes them argue incessantly over anything and everything.

I vehemently disagree!

[SportPilot]

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[FastEddieB]

I can't argue with you right now, my wife just beat me up.

Don't pretend you didn't deserve it.

Anyway, don't worry - we'll argue later.

[Wm.Ince]

I also believe most Private and higher pilots flying without a medical are much safer than you are with a medical. A know-it-all, narcissistic attitude will get you killed quicker than no medical.

Description of an accident waiting to happen.
Totally concur.

[CTLSi]

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[SportPilot]

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[Wm.Ince]

It would depend on your runway length, rate of climb, and headwind. It's quite possible to be at 500 feet before reaching the end of the runway, for example. I would have no problem making a 180 and landing.

A very good reason to use all the available runway for takeoff.

[3Dreaming]

It would depend on your runway length, rate of climb, and headwind. It's quite possible to be at 500 feet before reaching the end of the runway, for example. I would have no problem making a 180 and landing.

Actually at your average GA airport with a 3000' - 4000' runway if you are 500 feet before you get to the end of the runway a 180° turn to land back on the same runway is not going to work to well. You are simply to close to turn and lose the altitude and get back on the runway before running out of room. If I am over the runway and have a power loss I figure I will not be able to land back on the runway, unless there is enough runway left straight ahead.

One time in a Aero Commander 100 I had a partial power loss just off the end of the runway. I did a 180 and came back to the runway, and used up all of the pavement getting stopped. I was beyond the end of the runway when I had the power loss, and I was still to close. I literally had to taxi off the end of the runway through the grass to turn around.

[drseti]

if you are 500 feet before you get to the end of the runway a 180° turn to land back on the same runway is not going to work to well.

Absolutely true. Let's do the math:

Say you lose power at the end of a 3,000 foot runway, 500 feet in the air, and get turned around immediately. Let's further assume you'll be descending power-off at 1000 fpm, and that your best glide speed is 60 knots. Now, you're going to be airborne 30 seconds, during which you will have traveled a half a nautical mile (3038 feet). That means you'll flare 38 feet beyond the end of the pavement! And, that's with no tailwind (which you'll surely have if you took off into any headwind at all). If, power off and with full flaps, in an aggressive slip, you can descend at 2000 fpm, things are a little better -- you'll be down in 15 seconds, only halfway down the runway (again, neglecting wind). But, that seems to me a dangerous maneuver.

Seems to me a straight-ahead landing is going to be safer, absent hostile terrain or buildings off the end of the runway.

[MrMorden]

It would depend on your runway length, rate of climb, and headwind. It's quite possible to be at 500 feet before reaching the end of the runway, for example. I would have no problem making a 180 and landing.

Yeah, the only problem in that case might be having enough runway remaining under you to get it down and stopped. But I agree, 500 feet AGL is probably sufficient in most LSA with their low wing loadings. 500ft in a Baron would be suicidal.

[MrMorden]

Say you lose power at the end of a 3,000 foot runway, 500 feet in the air, and get turned around immediately.

Everything I have seen regarding making the turn at marginal altitudes says the turn has to be made immediately and aggressively. As in, 45° turns with significant nose-low attitude to keep airspeed up. Definitely a higher-risk maneuver at 500ft or so. And the 180° turn really becomes a 270°+ turn when you have to get back to runway heading.

It can be done, but it's a roll of the dice. Landing straight out is still probably safer depending on terrain.

[FastEddieB]

Everything I have seen regarding making the turn at marginal altitudes says the turn has to be made immediately and aggressively.

Aye, there's the rub.

Real pilots in the real world facing real unexpected engine failure do NOT generally act immediately.

Any instructor will confirm this.

I think the mental process is, "What? Huh?? REALLY??? Cripes!!! Need to act RIGHT NOW!!!"

Typically 3 or 4 seconds. Maybe 2 if you're really, really sharp and practice it all the time.

In any case, plenty of time for speed to bleed off and options to gradually disappear.

Again, my plan will always be to find a least bad spot ahead of the plane with no more than about a 45º turn required and get established towards it. Then, and only then, with the speed good and the plane configured and trimmed, might I weigh the option of another medium turn back towards the runway environment. Its when that decision is rushed after the almost inevitable airspeed loss that bad things often happen.